Toffs in Spitalfields

[Natalie Severn]

....and I dont need to use Frayling, Ben but I will.
How about yourself reading up on some of these chroniclers I mentioned of 19th century syphillis among toffs----and most importantly how they caught it?

[Ben]

You seem to have lived a rather sheltered life Ben

Right, because I wasn't smoking opium and chucking peasants onto the fire with Degas and Manet in the White Hart, Whitechapel in 1888. What "stuff" would I find? Documented evidence of Hooray Henrys dressed conspicuously and advertising their wealth in an area known for its "vicious, semi-criminal element" when the pickings were better elsewhere?

[Ben]

Norma,

He was NOT IN ERROR! Wiltons did function as a MUSIC HALL up until 1884.

You referred to Frayling specifically to bolster your point regarding Wilton's, and when quizzed further, you had this to say: "Sir Christopher Frayling had researched this in depth and the year he was talking about was 1888 and was quite specific to the murders of Jack the Ripper."

Do get real.----Yes,he told us it was documented and yes we will follow it up in due course

Until that time, it's probably sensible to avoid using Frayling either as a Toff-o-meter or someone capable of proving that toffs sought out prostitutes in the East End "in droves". Until that time, I'd say I'm more than justified in deducing from the extant evidence that the alleged prevalence of "toffs" in that district at that time is just another hoary old chestnut designed to keep the myth of Gentleman Jack alive.

I really don't need Astrakhan's gold chains to infer that Hutchinson lied. That's merely the icing on the rotton cake.

[Natalie Severn]

The fact that someone agrees with you doesn't make either of you "absolutely correct", Norma.



So all of these people dressed in their best and made a bee-line for the worst possible area in London for crime and poverty just because they specifically wanted to seek out the servies of the least desirable prostitutes in the district? If not, they are of no relevance here.

You seem to have lived a rather sheltered life Ben,and not read much nineteenth century literature which is full of this kind of stuff.Read Emile Zola"s Nana,Somerset Maugham,"s Lisa of Lambeth [for direst poverty] ,Oscar Wilde,Balzac, Proust"s Sodom and Gomorrah ,Guy De Maupassant even Flaubert.

[Natalie Severn]

If Sir Christopher Frayling did not produce the beef, again, people are relying on his "insistence". Norma says it could be verified by documentation - did he provide any, as Booth did? If not, we're really working on the basis of "this bloke says so, so it must be true", despite the fact that the bloke in question is demonstrably in error on a crucial point.

I'm sure that Booth's research was aided to an extent by policeman's notebooks, and I consider that important. I mean, it's a little bit ridiculous to envisage the coppers on beat suppressing evidence of a toff presence in the district just for the heck of it. "Fairly comforable" is neither "poor" nor "criminal", but it certainly isn't a reference to "toffs".

Why are you repeating this mantra about Frayling,Ben? He was NOT IN ERROR!
Wiltons did function as a MUSIC HALL up until 1884.A Fact.So what he said about Wiltons was sound and applied to how the East End was regarded by wealthy roue"s.
And please dont act the goat at midnight today---how can anybody prove Sir Christopher had the documentation at this hour on New Years Day!Do get real.----Yes,he told us it was documented and yes we will follow it up in due course -and explain to him or whoever that its just so two blokes can try and make out George Hutchinson was a "liar,"Abberline and four other cops idiots,there were no toffs ever walked the Commercial Street at 2am to find a Mary Kelly to buy sex off,and that the East End didnt stand right alongside the gold paved streets of the City of London.

[Ben]

Thanks Roger!Absolutely correct on each point

The fact that someone agrees with you doesn't make either of you "absolutely correct", Norma.

I think both Ben and Sam need to take time out and read up on what lots of middle and upper class males enjoyed in the naughty nineties -plenty of artists tell the story but Manet,Toulouse Latrec, Degas

So all of these people dressed in their best and made a bee-line for the worst possible area in London for crime and poverty just because they specifically wanted to seek out the servies of the least desirable prostitutes in the district? If not, they are of no relevance here.

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Roger!Absolutely correct on each point.
Perhaps its also worth mentioning that Liverpool Street and Bishopsgate -in broad daylight-and parts of Commercial Street,[after dark]are still "red light" spots for the same reason.There is also quite shocking poverty around the areas of Whitechapel North and East,and untold wealth in and around Bevis Marks ,Aldgate,and Fournier Street.

I think both Ben and Sam need to take time out and read up on what lots of middle and upper class males enjoyed leading up to the naughty nineties -plenty of artists writers and biographers tell the story but Manet,Toulouse Lautrec, Degas, -Sickert in particular actually depicted it all-[and 1880"s] in London and Paris.A frightful number had syphilis -including the Prince of Wales ,Lord Randolph Churchill ,the Crown Prince of Austria etc etc----the last two mad as hatters by the end--
---titter ye not Sam!

[Ben]

If Sir Christopher Frayling did not produce the beef, again, people are relying on his "insistence". Norma says it could be verified by documentation - did he provide any, as Booth did? If not, we're really working on the basis of "this bloke says so, so it must be true", despite the fact that the bloke in question is demonstrably in error on a crucial point.

I'm sure that Booth's research was aided to an extent by policeman's notebooks, and I consider that important. I mean, it's a little bit ridiculous to envisage the coppers on beat suppressing evidence of a toff presence in the district just for the heck of it. "Fairly comforable" is neither "poor" nor "criminal", but it certainly isn't a reference to "toffs".

[Ben]

Hi RJ,

Yes, a toff could pick up a tart in Haymarket...that is, if he didn't mind his boss or his mom accidently seeing him do it.

...so then it's Plan B. Seek out prostitutes elsewhere in London where you were unlikely to meet mum or boss, a description that could encompass many, many other places in London with better reputations than Whitechapel and Spitalfields.

It's naive to believe that it was a mere accident of geography that East London's redlight district abutted the West End's financial district.

It certainly isn't the case that prostitution in that area sprung up there because of its proximity to the West End's financial district, nor did the Eddoweses and Chapmans of this world rely on any toff to continue plying their traid. The majority of their clients would not have been the well-heeled, but men of their own class and background. It may well be true that prostitutes waited for clients near Aldgate Tube Station; that would serve to highlight the folly of venturing into Dorset Street for illicit purposes. Not much point if the prostitutes could come to them.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi RP,

LOL. Sorry, Sam. All your good-natured energy aside, precisely why should we accept that this theoretical toff (let alone a multicide!) would give a rat's arse for either 'safety' or 'salubrity'?

He might have cared to find a woman who didn't stink of god-knows-what, and who ran a better than 50:50 chance of not tripping over her own tits.

It's naive to believe that it was a mere accident of geography that East London's redlight district abutted the West End's financial district.

It's rather more naive to think of Whitechapel/Spitalfields as East London's red-light district. Each pocket of poverty had its own plentiful supply of vagrants and streetwalkers, and Whitechapel/Spitalfields was not particularly special in this regard.

[rjpalmer]

Against that, we have far more salubrious venues out West, where nookie aplenty could be bought, and even Lambeth looked to be a much safer bet in comparison.

LOL. Sorry, Sam. All your good-natured energy aside, precisely why should we accept that this theoretical toff (let alone a multicide!) would give a rat's arse for either 'safety' or 'salubrity'?

Are punters known to hold those two commodities in high regard?

Yes, a toff could pick up a tart in Haymarket...that is, if he didn't mind his boss or his mom accidently seeing him do it. You seem to overvalue convenience at the expense of annonymity.

But, beyond all that, I certainly agree with Norma's main point. It's naive to believe that it was a mere accident of geography that East London's redlight district abutted the West End's financial district.

These redlight economies rely on men coming in from outside the area. Hence, it's in Aldgate rather than East Ham! Indeed, it appears one of the chief pick-up spots for prostitutes was next to Aldgate Tube Station. I can assure you the ladies there weren't waiting for John Pizer!

[Natalie Severn]

Are you sure that's what he said, Nats? His very words? I might imagine it as a pick-up point (albeit for [very] lower middle-class men) at some point in its history... but a "brothel"?

Not that it matters, given that Wilton's was inoperative as a music hall by the time Astrakhan Man enters the equation and - as we've seen - the Commercial Street music hall was located in a pretty grotty part of town. We've also seen that much of the clientele at nearby Shoreditch music hall seem to have been all cloth caps and cholera.

Against that, we have far more salubrious venues out West, where nookie aplenty could be bought, and even Lambeth looked to be a much safer bet in comparison.

I am quite certain ,Sam,that that is what Sir Christopher Frayling said.Not just said but emphasised in order to drive home the point he was making about "toffs coming to the East End to find prostitutes".Absolutely certain.100%.It seems that many Londoner"s already know this about the East End by the way!

I understand Wilton"s closed as a Music Hall in 1888. I know John Wilton died in 1880 .But it DID continue as a Music Hall for a few years after 1880.So his comments referring to how Wilton"s had been used as a brothel would apply.
You do realise,Sam,that Sir Christopher was making a very specific point because it could be "verified" by documentation? however, he wasnt saying that Wilton"s was the ONLY place in the East End toffs went to buy women----far from it.His lecture addressed the upper class clientele in the context of Jack the Ripper and the East End.

Yes ,I know what a fine cartographer Booth was Sam.I have the greatest respect for him actually.BUT,he took things "street by street ".He also used the beat policeman"s notebooks as a guide and very often his findings were "coloured" by what the police beat policemen ,who accompanied him, had to say about that street,which could have in advertently included some not so criminal,not so poor folk,if you see what I mean.In any case his conclusions were that just over ONE THIRD of the entire area of Whitechapel was below the poverty line-not that it was just one big sewer.

[Ben]

I object to you suggesting Sir Christopher Frayling is a liar I really do.What evidence do you have that he was even remotely "lying"?

I didn't call Frayling a liar, Norma.

It's simply been demonstrated already that he's wrong on crucial facts, as Claire pointed out, thereby inviting caution when assessing the points upon which he was supposedly "insistent", as reported by you. What I object to is you calling Booth "sally annie type like the general ----very ,very ,obsessive,full of rectitude!", and I don't think you'd be referring to him as such if he supported your view. I'm afraid Booth decisively scores over Frayling when it comes to demonstrable research and expertise on this subject.

It's no use making continual reference to a couple of nice buildings which were built in the 1700s. Even if royalty lived in those couple houses in 188, it still wouldn't invalidate the contemporary observation that, in the main, the street was populated by the "fairly comfortable".

The man stated that in the 19th century it is documented historical FACT that Wilton"s was used by upper class and other wealthy men as a brothel.What "evidence" do you possess that that is not true?

What evidence does he possess to show that it was?

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

The man stated that in the 19th century it is documented historical FACT that Wilton"s was used by upper class and other wealthy men as a brothel.

Are you sure that's what he said, Nats? His very words? I might imagine it as a pick-up point (albeit for [very] lower middle-class men) at some point in its history... but a "brothel"?

Not that it matters, given that Wilton's was inoperative as a music hall by the time Astrakhan Man enters the equation and - as we've seen - the Commercial Street music hall was located in a pretty grotty part of town. We've also seen that much of the clientele at nearby Shoreditch music hall seem to have been all cloth caps and cholera.

Against that, we have far more salubrious venues out West, where nookie aplenty could be bought, and even Lambeth looked to be a much safer bet in comparison.

[Sam Flynn]

Forget Booth.He had an axe to grind and was a bit of a sally annie type like the general ----very ,very ,obsessive,full of rectitude!

Booth's information came from people who actually lived in the areas he surveyed, Nats - schoolteachers, policemen etc. Now they, too, may have had their axes to grind, but at least they were grinding them in London in 1888-89, which is more than we can hope to do.

Booth's notebooks are available for all to see at the London School of Economics' website. Unlike, say, Mayhew - or Frayling, come to think of it - these survey notes are pithy and to the point, with very little room for elaboration or exaggeration. It was these notes that got turned into the maps, and thank goodness we have them.

Forget Booth? You wouldn't go around saying "Forget Tacitus", now would you?