Toffs in Spitalfields

[Ben]

Absolutely, Gareth.

A stark contrast between a near-deserted street of extremely ill repute and a bustling, rowdy music hall.

[Sam Flynn]

that doesn't make them aristocracy, let alone aristocrats who swanned into the East End

...let alone places like Commercial Street, Spitalfields, at dead of night.

[Ben]

The palace grounds being alive with throngs of fashionably dressed ladies and sportsman like men

Sportsman-like.

Well dress me up in tails, hand me a cigar and call me Monty. I make that Pimm's o'clock!

Or not, as the case appears to be. Why the need to turn any outsider into a "toff", Norma? A toff refers to an upper class gentleman, and there were a grand total of zero "toffs" living in the murder district at the time of Booth's study. There's no evidence that any of these 500 were "Hooray Henrys" or their female equivalents. According to the article you provided, they were simply outsiders who weren't "poor" - that doesn't make them aristocracy, let alone aristocrats who swanned into the East End in opulent attire with a view to soliciting prostitutes where they lived. It's probably sensible, as I submitted earlier, to consider any reference to fashionable attire in the context of any article referencing the East End.

It's really great that you're doing this research, but take care that you avoid doing so purely to force-fit the evidence into a preconceived conclusion. I'm grateful for these newspaper snippets, which are interesting, just not in the way you think they are. You call Sims a "top-hatted toff" - well, yes, that would be a fair enough description of him when he was wearing a top hat, but why mention that aspect of his imagined attire if there's no evidence that he ever wore one in Whitechapel?

Ever consider was it suggested that the interlopers "go elsewhere"? Or why it was specifically highlighted that catalogues were beyond the means of the poorer visitors? Because it was an unusual and therefore noteworthy event, of course, and beacause these places were usually the resort of the working class men and women in the district.

"Not poor" does not equal "toff" - a valuable lesson to learn from that article you generously provided.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Regarding further news reports on the behaviour of those who had turned the People"s Palace into a "Can Can college" for the night more disquiet was expressed when on October 6th,in the same newspaper,a report told of " The palace grounds being alive with throngs of fashionably dressed ladies and sportsman like men

All well and good, Nats - but the People's Palace was some three miles to the east of Spitalfields, in Mile End/Bow.

In the same paper there are references to weekly concerts being held in Christchurch,Spitalfields of Handel"s Messiah and other orchestral concerts -very well attended.

I dare say, but how frequent were these events, and at what time of day were they held? Irrespective of that, I doubt that the attendees - toffish or otherwise - found themselves so roused after the "Amen" chorus that they stayed around after midnight to quench their ardour with a local unfortunate.

Now Sims really was a top hatted toff if ever there was one,and if he really loved going Sundays to this area

Well, as you observe, Sims was hardly "rakish" - and, again, his taking a stroll along Whitechapel Road of a Sunday (presumably not in the dark), is no evidence of a fashion for decent people to go a-wenching in the very heart of Spitalfields.

Fabulous information you've unearthed there, though - for which many thanks.

[Natalie Severn]

Sam, I remember going to New York on an ocean liner in the late 1960's as a well-heeled, and for that time, wealthy chap, not upper class, but certainly middle class, and when me and me mates jumped in the yellow cab we didn't say 'Broadway', we went to the Apollo and Cheeta in Harlem - at great risk to ourselves. I had a gin with James Brown.
You couldn't do that on Broadway or 42nd street.
Private Eye put their office in Soho not only because it was cheap, it was cheerful as well.
And somehow everyone is forgetting the forty Cambridge swells bunkered down just round the back of the old school.

We did the same sort of thing AP! Went to the Bowery by yellow cab.And we saw the astonishing genius of the drums-Gene Krupa playing them in Greenwich village---stoned out of his head...

[Natalie Severn]

I know where it was, Nats - I pointed it out on an excerpt from the O/S map earlier, which in turn was based on Reynolds' map of 1882 (which shows the location precisely).I've yet to see any evidence to that effect, but I'm all agog.

As to Leno and Lloyd appearing at the Cambridge... they also appeared at far more "civilised" parts of town (e.g. Drury Lane, Gatti's), where I'm sure the "droves" would have preferred to have gone, and probably did. Ben has already suggested that local theatres tend to attract local people, and I'd tend to agree. Besides, he should know - being an actor and all that.

I saw the great baritone Bryn Terfel sing his signature role of Falstaff in Cardiff last year, and there was hardly a toff in sight. Hardly surprising, since there ain't that many genuine toffs in the area (not that the Cardiff Bay of 2008 can be likened to Spitalfields in 1888, of course). In eight weeks' time, I shall see him as The Flying Dutchman at Covent Garden, where I dare say the "real toffs" will be there in numbers. In fact, I'd better hire meself a penguin suit, otherwise I might feel rather conspicuous. Come to think of it, some fake bling might not go amiss either

Are you being a bit rude here Sam? Bling...?
Do enjoy it! In fact I went twice to The Royal Opera House at Covent Garden last year and once to Holland Park.There were toffs at Covent Garden but lots of people were very casually dressed.Not so at Holland Park-disappointingly toffee nosed- and not a patch on the Royal Opera House productions.

Regarding further news reports on the behaviour of those who had turned the People"s Palace into a "Can Can college" for the night more disquiet was expressed when on October 6th,in the same newspaper,a report told of " The palace grounds being alive with throngs of fashionably dressed ladies and sportsman like men, taking the place over again , this time by exhibiting their sporting and other dogs.Only 50 out of 450 entries were local,with alienation complete as an exhaustive catalogue priced at sixpence was well beyond the pockets of the poorer visitors who were unable to study the animals by book.The suggestion made in the paper that "these unwelcome interlopers go elsewhere" and instead "support such places as lesser institutions such as Toynbee Hall" etc The East London Advertiser seems to have run a campaign on the matter right through the Autumn of 1888.Resentment was still being expressed when 15,554 people passed through the turn stiles on Boxing Day of 1888 but the Advertisers recorder was a little more circumspect after going in this time
because there were some beautiful grottos of Red Riding Hood and a giant snowball etc alongside an Art Exhibition of fine works by Millais and a dozen other artists so that poor and well off alike could appreciate the fantastic decorations and the celebration. In the same paper there are references to weekly concerts being held in Christchurch,Spitalfields of Handel"s Messiah and other orchestral concerts -very well attended.

One other surprise:-well it surprised me anyway- George R Sims, Macnaghten"s friend,the journalist, author, dramatist and writer of ballads,adored the Whitechapel Road.It says he positively revelled in its atmosphere its cosmopolitanism and nominated it

"the most interesting Street in London....packed with pages of the "Book of Life" written in many European Tongues.Here "Asia jostles Europe and the oriental note carries you back to the Picture Bible of your childhood".

Now Sims really was a top hatted toff if ever there was one,and if he really loved going Sundays to this area from where he lived in his elegant Regent"s Park Mansion, then it must have had something special about it that road![but no I dont believe he was a rake-a good man Sims-my Dad used to recite his ballad on Christmas Day,"It was Christmas Day in the Workhouse"---very moving it was too in a rather sentimental way!


Re your above reply to my dear friend AP......... so lets stick to the 500 hoorah Henrys who turned the Peoples Palace into a Can Can Club eh----scandalising those who had contributed to it as a charity.You have the dates,Sam,29th September 1888 East London Advertiser---look it up for yourself!

[Sam Flynn]

The "forty Cambridge swells" were presumably the idealistic young social reformers of Toynbee Hall, AP? Hardly flashy blingmeisters who made a habit of chasing dirty, gin-soaked forty-somethings around the neighbourhood, one would have thought. Chacun à son goût, I know, but "quelqu'une avec gout" is a rather exotic preference even for an idealistic young Oxbridge blade.

PS: were there really 40 of them "bunkered down" there at any one time?

[Cap'n Jack]

Sam, I remember going to New York on an ocean liner in the late 1960's as a well-heeled, and for that time, wealthy chap, not upper class, but certainly middle class, and when me and me mates jumped in the yellow cab we didn't say 'Broadway', we went to the Apollo and Cheeta in Harlem - at great risk to ourselves. I had a gin with James Brown.
You couldn't do that on Broadway or 42nd street.
Private Eye put their office in Soho not only because it was cheap, it was cheerful as well.
And somehow everyone is forgetting the forty Cambridge swells bunkered down just round the back of the old school.

[Sam Flynn]

The Cambridge Music Hall,actually Sam it was just round the corner from Hanbury Street

I know where it was, Nats - I pointed it out on an excerpt from the O/S map earlier, which in turn was based on Reynolds' map of 1882 (which shows the location precisely).

So toffs didnt come to the East End in their droves?

I've yet to see any evidence to that effect, but I'm all agog.

As to Leno and Lloyd appearing at the Cambridge... they also appeared at far more "civilised" parts of town (e.g. Drury Lane, Gatti's), where I'm sure the "droves" would have preferred to have gone, and probably did. Ben has already suggested that local theatres tend to attract local people, and I'd tend to agree. Besides, he should know - being an actor and all that.

I saw the great baritone Bryn Terfel sing his signature role of Falstaff in Cardiff last year, and there was hardly a toff in sight. Hardly surprising, since there ain't that many genuine toffs in the area (not that the Cardiff Bay of 2008 can be likened to Spitalfields in 1888, of course). In eight weeks' time, I shall see him as The Flying Dutchman at Covent Garden, where I dare say the "real toffs" will be there in numbers. In fact, I'd better hire meself a penguin suit, otherwise I might feel rather conspicuous. Come to think of it, some fake bling might not go amiss either

[Natalie Severn]

... sandwiched between Dorset Street and Great Pearl Street, as already noted, Nats. I'm sorry, but until I see something definite to the contrary, I really can't see that particular establishment being a haven for well-heeled young bucks, or even old bucks, for that matter. Even if they were, I can't see the Cambridge and its environs offering much to attract our "toffs" after lights-out. From what little evidence I have of Music Halls' opening hours (see The Victorian Music Hall, by Dagmar Kift), it seems that two shows per night might have been put on, between 7-9PM and 9-11PM.

I have no idea whether that applied to the Cambridge (I'm not one to generalise if I can help it), but if it did then there'd be a gap of at least two hours, if not three, during which our purported "toff" would be wandering around the semi-darkness of the "darkest streets" before meeting Kelly. I just can't see that working somehow. There was precious little else to divert him in the neighbourhood, unless he fancied picking up with the likes of Martha Tabram for a swifty, alongside the dock labourers, porters and soldiers who undoubtedly resorted to such acts of catharsis as their meagre pay would allow.

Well I no more than you know the exact rules governing the Music Halls bars and the licensing of them,Sam. There was petitioning by missionaries to close these bars-but this had not happened in 1888.
The Cambridge Music Hall,actually Sam it was just round the corner from Hanbury Street on the same side of Commercial Street as Hanbury Street , in the week leading up to November 9 1888 it had the great Music Hall artist one of the greatest ever,Dan Leno, heading the Bill ,that week.Marie Lloyd also performed there often at the beginning of her career.Anyway,Dan Leno would have drawn crowds,certainly, and among these crowds no doubt some of the over spill of noisy hurrah Henry"s at the People"s Palace up the Whitechapel Road ,busy turning it into a "Can Can hall"---did you ever
So toffs didnt come to the East End in their droves? Careful Sam.....plenty more info up the old sleeve

[Sam Flynn]

These practices went on in every music hall in both the East End and elsewhere, including the back of the Cambridge Music Hall, situated in Commercial Street- just some two hundred yards from Dorset Street

... sandwiched between Dorset Street and Great Pearl Street, as already noted, Nats. I'm sorry, but until I see something definite to the contrary, I really can't see that particular establishment being a haven for well-heeled young bucks, or even old bucks, for that matter. Even if they were, I can't see the Cambridge and its environs offering much to attract our "toffs" after lights-out. From what little evidence I have of Music Halls' opening hours (see The Victorian Music Hall, by Dagmar Kift), it seems that two shows per night might have been put on, between 7-9PM and 9-11PM.

I have no idea whether that applied to the Cambridge (I'm not one to generalise if I can help it), but if it did then there'd be a gap of at least two hours, if not three, during which our purported "toff" would be wandering around the semi-darkness of the "darkest streets" before meeting Kelly. I just can't see that working somehow. There was precious little else to divert him in the neighbourhood, unless he fancied picking up with the likes of Martha Tabram for a swifty, alongside the dock labourers, porters and soldiers who undoubtedly resorted to such acts of catharsis as their meagre pay would allow.

[Natalie Severn]

...ah, but which of those sources contains the proof that night-time Spitalfields was the resort of anyone but its predominantly lower-working/poverty-class residents, Nats?

In terms of what one might term the "Toffs in Spitalfields myth", where, oh where, is the definitive piece of grit around which the snowball grew?

Sam,

Everything I have read so far on what "went on" in East End Music Halls including the upstairs "brothel "rooms of Wiltons up until it became a mission in the year 1888 holds true .As do my findings on the bars used for "business" at the back of Music Halls in Whitechapel .These practices went on in every music hall in both the East End and elsewhere, including the back of the Cambridge Music Hall, situated in Commercial Street- just some two hundred yards from Dorset Street---and with a full house in the week of Mary Kelly"s murder.The seats at the front were plush and reserved for well to do men-usually wanting to ogle chorus girls -and it applied to most Whitechapel Music Halls but not the ones taken over by Jewish and Immigrant theatre groups such as the one in Fieldgate Street, where Jewish performances differed somewhat in content.
Incidently,I notice neither you Sam,or Ben ,have bothered to illustrate your counter assertions with anything from your own research !


Anyway,I have dug out quite a bit today, referring to loads of hurrah Henrys flocking to the East End at night-thanks partly to references given by Fishman and a few newspaper sources.There were some 500 -1000 chinless wonders ,as well as a Scots guards Band -who managed to cause outrage over the months of the Autumn of terror , turning the People"s Palace into a "can-can college" at night----for further info see-"The People"s Palace Exposure"-29th September-East London Advertiser.And this went on over several weeks amid local protest in the Autumn of 1888.


And Sam and Ben.....I am delighted to tell you I have quite a few others up my sleeve----but I will let you digest this one first

[Ben]

The sources both Fishman and White quote allow for much 1888 comment and analysis.

I'll take your word for it, Norma, but that still isn't comparable to having the actual research subject - the Victorian East End - immediately available to experience and assess. Booth and London were in a position to do that, whereas Fishman could not have been. Whatever differences of opinion London and Barnett may have had, both recognised the poverty and crime in the district or else there wouldn't have been the need for the "philanthropy" in the first place.

But that is what academics are expected to be able to be.

Doesn't mean they always are, Norma, or even mostly are. And I hardly think that the contemporary commentators suffered from a paucity of "sources". They had the source available to hand, unlike the Fishmeister.

[Sam Flynn]

The sources both Fishman and White quote allow for much 1888 comment and analysis.For example, Fishman"s bibliography includes Government sources,Local Government sources, Contemporary Newspapers and journals viz: Arbeter Fraint;City and London Gazette; City Press;Commonweal;Criminologist;Daily Chronicle;Daily News;Daily Telegraph East London Advertiser+all local East End papers;Illustrated London News;News of the World,Jewish Chronicle 1888,Jewish Calendar,Justice Lancet, Pall Mall Gazette People"s Press, Punch, Reynolds News Star,The Times...

...ah, but which of those sources contains the proof that night-time Spitalfields was the resort of anyone but its predominantly lower-working/poverty-class residents, Nats?

In terms of what one might term the "Toffs in Spitalfields myth", where, oh where, is the definitive piece of grit around which the snowball grew?

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
The sources both Fishman and White quote allow for much 1888 comment and analysis.For example, Fishman"s bibliography includes Government sources,Local Government sources, Contemporary Newspapers and journals viz: Arbeter Fraint;City and London Gazette; City Press;Commonweal;Criminologist;Daily Chronicle;Daily News;Daily Telegraph East London Advertiser+all local East End papers;Illustrated London News;News of the World,Jewish Chronicle 1888,Jewish Calendar,Justice Lancet, Pall Mall Gazette People"s Press, Punch, Reynolds News Star,The Times
The General Bibliography includes Fiction and semi fiction as well as autobiographies suchas those of Annie Bessant, Booth ,London,Law,Macnaghten
and oneof them is called "Prostitutes and Pater Familias" in Dyos & Wolf;eds The Victorian City----!.

The work of Fishman includes studies of British Social work in 19th century London too.


A bit ago, I studied the work of Rev.Samuel Barnett,and it was actually a whole lot different from Jack London"s accounts or William Morris"s account---surprisingly so.Rev Barnett was not a socialist whereas Jack London appears to have been.Quite different accounts of the people who lived there.Rev Barnett lived at Toynbee Hall but appears to only have socialised with the people who lived there- graduates who stayed there and who shared his "philanthropy".But Jack London got down and dirty like George Orwell in Wigan Pier----or appears to have done!None of these could be said to have been totally objective or without bias.But that is what academics are expected to be able to be.They take all the available accounts from many sources-not just one or two -and put it all together and analyse it!