Toffs in Spitalfields

[Cap'n Jack]

Yes, Mark, I'm about as passive as a challenged wolverine.
Books have been written about Tumblety, and Batty street, and we all suffer the consequence.
I try to live through it though.

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
I understand from many sources,including Jerry White and Iain Sinclair both of whom have wrtten on the East End---Jerry White very extensively, that Bill Fishman is considered a foremost authority,if not THE foremost authority, on the East End.
Not only is he a distinguished academic,he was born and bred in Whitechapel,the son of an immigrant Jewish Taylor and he conducted many highly commended "East End Walks" over the years in Whitechapel and Spitalfields-though they were not "Jack the Ripper" walks -mostly being concerned with the socio-economic background and history of Whitechapel for his students .
It seems no matter who is found you will immediately find fault and swear black is white.

Ragarding the dictionary definition [Longmans]of the word "BUCK" it means


[old informal usage- especially in 19th century England --this as clearly intended by Fishman]


A FINE, GAY, WELL DRESSED MAN


Regarding the word "West" in this context ,Fishman, a man born and bred in East London and therefore an "East Londoner", is intending you to understand that he is referring to the more prosperous "West " London--most definitely ,NOT "suburban" London !
You need to know the jargon Ben,you need to know London too -it would seem in this particular case .

Anyhow I have another quote,this time from A.N.Wilson in his book entitled,"The Victorians":

"Those who penetrated the East End could discover that it was indeed one of the roughest and most exotic ports in the World,where a prodigious mixture of races and cultures could be glimpsed.......................
..................The enchantment of the alien,the half thrilling terror of violence lurking in the "hell holes",the cheap excitement of knowing that "scores of such women"[he is referring to the female habitues -of vice-in dance halls and music halls-the chapter discusses Marie Lloyd and her East End beginnings-not in any way implying Marie herself was a prostitute,she was not,but the music halls had notorious "bars" at the back where women hung out to pick up men -as it was usual for them to dance in the pubs etc].
Incidently ,in the same chapter, he discusses the attraction of "the rough" for men like Max Beerholm or TS Eliot to frequent East End Halls where there was also an element of excitement---Wilson calls it "tasting a bit of rough".He adds,"It was the secular equivalent of those who came out of their cabs and carriages to "savour the exotic delights of ritualistic worship of "slum" churches.

Anyway,Ben,I really dont want to have much more to do with this thread.It has seemed to me a very hostile venue from the start .
Finally I dont think the complete lack of rapport between Claire and myself is any of your business.

Cheers
Norma

[claire]

This again. Time to come clean. I have been researching Wilton's for a book for the past several months (properly). It was a Wesleyan mission in 1888. I am really interested in any documentation anyone has for the period 1880-c.1886, since it seems to have fallen into the voids of time then. I would be delighted to find any evidence of its connection to JtR, for obviously selfish reasons. As yet, Wilton's only connection to him is via Lusk. But certainly it was a ribald old place in its time, mostly for sailors and the like, due to the proximity of the sailors' home. Prior to around 1878, it had a good rep with the magistrates which plummeted due to all sorts going on (and a reputed murder, which no-one has any confirmation of).

Anyhow, off topic. I'm just tired of Norma having a go at me for not being sufficiently qualified to comment. I am.

Ben, she continues to be rude to me, as she said, because she dislikes me. I don't know why. And nor do I care. I was interested in this thread because it specifically mentioned Wilton's. But I'll be sure in future to avoid threads in which Ms Severn [sic] has a vested interest.

[Ben]

I'd also urge caution when plaicing too much faith in anything that isn't a primary source. Not that is matters, since he wasn't suggesting that these young bucks were "toffs", but what was Fishman's evidence for the assertion that "some young bucks from out West" regularly frequented the Cambridge in Commercial Street. There's a danger in simply appealing to perceived authority.

Why the continued rudeness towards Claire, by the way?

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

How have you managed to mutate "daring young bucks" into "toffs"? Purely on the grounds that they came from "out West"? In which case, the inferences you're making just aren't acceptable. Acton and Isleworth were "out West" - they doesn't mean either location were populated by toffs, let alone toffs who dressed in their best and ventured blindly into slumsville. If we take a step back from the mistaken belief that East = vagrants and West = Lord Cavendish-Smart, we'll avoid straying too far from the truth.

Similarly, your quote regarding the musical hall frivoilty hardly advances any argument that these places were primarily the resort of toffs. So we learn there was merriment and cheap drink and food. Excellent, I imagine that's what most of us thought all along, and who would have benefitted most from these these thrings? Why, the people who lived in the district, of course. It just seems as though you're grasping at the odd straw or two now.

[Natalie Severn]

Wiltons and The Cambridge Music Hall and daring young Bucks from out West

I've still yet to see any such evidence, Nats - at least not of "numbers" of well-heeled rakes using the class of prostitute one might have found in Commercial Street, Spitalfields, and its tributaries, in the 1880s. There's plenty of popular imagery in fictional books, some (ostensibly) factual Ripper books of the "old school", and the movies, but I can't recall too many instances otherwise.

Hi Sam,Ben ,Miss Marple etc


In "East End 1888 "by Professor William Fishman,there are several references to rakes from the West visiting the East End as one of their "playgrounds".
Since Wilton"s has been argued over most and Sir Christopher Frayling scoffed at in particular,here is one of the most famous chroniclers of the East End , Fishman, confirming the clientele of Wiltons itself as well as several others-The Cambridge in Commercial Street ,possibly being of some special significance to this case:

" WILTONS in Graces Alley,Wellclose Square off Cable Street, and

THE CAMBRIDGE ---- COMMERCIAL STREET, ---


WERE REGULARLY FREQUENTED BY CUSTOMERS FROM WELL OUTSIDE THE AREA,
"NOTABLY SOME DARING YOUNG BUCKS FROM OUT WEST."


he goes on----"In 1888 the East End was well served by a cluster of Music Halls where food and drink came cheap; after which one could burst out in a euphoria of collective maudlin or the ribald chorus of a popular song".

This is just one quote-I know there are several such references in East End 1888- but that will have to do for now Sam, as there are 400 pages to wade through!
Best
Norma


Fishman is a recognised authority on the East End and another of his East End book"s entitled" East End Jewish Radicals" is recommended reading for secondary school pupils.

[m_w_r]

Norma -

Thanks. There may well be more than one edition of that book, and I suspect I am not looking at the same edition as you. I'm just interested in the suggestion that he was arrested "in the East End" per se.

AP -

What heresy is this now? I can scarcely believe that there is an aspect of Ripperology with which you disagree. Normally you are such a passive and accommodating fellow, easily embracing concepts as they are presented. Since I don't want to drag this thread off-topic, I shall simply remark that I do not know enough to form an opinion on this matter.

Regards,

Mark

[Cap'n Jack]

Mark
according to the old school he lived in Batty street.
My naked baboon's arse he did.

[Sam Flynn]

Evidence exists that the prostitutes of the East End were used by numbers of well heeled rakes

I've still yet to see any such evidence, Nats - at least not of "numbers" of well-heeled rakes using the class of prostitute one might have found in Commercial Street, Spitalfields, and its tributaries, in the 1880s. There's plenty of popular imagery in fictional books, some (ostensibly) factual Ripper books of the "old school", and the movies, but I can't recall too many instances otherwise.

[Natalie Severn]

Mark,
I am back in London now and have left the Paul Begg book,The Definitive History in Wales! However,on page 279--see ref-to be exact, Paul says he was arrested in the East End.It is on either that page or as the page continues overleaf.However---I have here in London, Paul"s book," The Facts" and he states in this that there was never any evidence to connect him with the East End!!!So Paul Begg must have revised his opinion.Ofcourse that pre-dates Roger Palmer"s find of the"interview" by a news man with Tumblety, in which he freely admits to being in the East End and visiting the murder sights---like everyone else-so he said or words to that effect.
But I will continue to look out for information on his arrest and where his "misconduct" with the four men took place.
Best
Norma

[m_w_r]

When I have time I will dig out other sources than those Christopher Frayling gave at his lecture.

Hi -

While you're at it, could you help me out with the "Tumblety arrested in East End" reference of a page or two ago? I have looked through the sources you suggested, but I cannot find anything more specific than "London" given as the place of arrest. Probably not looking hard enough.

Thanks.

Mark

[Natalie Severn]

Miss Marple,

I happen to disagree with you over this matter of the East End .Evidence exists that the prostitutes of the East End were used by numbers of well heeled rakes .When I have time I will dig out other sources than those Christopher Frayling gave at his lecture .
I dont think anybody would deny that these women ---and many children and men in the East End of 1888--- led terrible lives.But that doesnt mean we need to describe their outward appearance in a pejorative way-for example the use of the word "hag"to describe a woman has association with one who is not only old and ugly but also is thought to be evil.Just because these women lived in poverty with all the problems that that entails, doesnt make them ugly or evil.

Best Wishes
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=claire;60521] You decided to take a disliking to me because I pointed
out your expert was wrong about his dates.




Claire----you flatter yourself--------I took a dislike to you full stop.

[miss marple]

description

Norma,
Any description I have made of the c5 for example fleabag, is how they would have been percieved by toffs. Fleas were endemic in working class areas,and many upper class people had a horror of the filthy conditions, apart from the massive social divide.To some toffs these eastenders were barely human, they might have been on the moon.There has been too much romanticising of these women, imposing on them classless modern perceptions, they led terrible lives.
I have tried to point out that when toffs got involved with working class woman they were invariably young and good looking.
I agree with Claire,the activities of french and English artists and poets is not relevent to the activities in the Eastend.
G inside of F was typo. I ve seen and heard Frayling many times on tv and radio.
He is a cultural talking head.Always ready with an opinion.
Miss Marple

[claire]

....and---- I couldnt give baboons bare arse what you think!

ahh. Good to see you're still capable of rational debate. You decided to take a disliking to me because I pointed out your expert was wrong about his dates. Since that point, you have brought in more and more tangentially related subjects and issues, to the extent that you decided to relate the sexuality of a French writer of the mid-20th Century, and the mental condition of a French painter of the late 19th, to dressing habits of men in the East End of London 1888. I just wanted to know how you thought that was relevant, particularly since they had quite unpleasant overtones.

But since you only have abuse to offer, I suspect that even you know that it probably isn't relevant at all. You just refuse to enter debate, as the rest of us have to be wrong, if we don't agree with you.

Finally, I suspect you don't have a baboon's rear end, naked or otherwise, to give or withhold. Yet another subjective cul-de-sac, if you'll excuse the pun.