Dutfields Yard interior photograph, 1900

[Sam Flynn]

I know you want to help out here and I understand.But the IWEA club moved from these premises in 1889.

I had originally written "the good burghers of Berner Street", Nats, but thought that would be an alliteration too far. I wasn't seriously suggesting that it was Diemschutz' pony-dung either. The salient point, as Monty has picked up (cheers, M), is that there's no reason to expect the yard to have remained in exactly the same condition as it was in 1888 some 13 years later.

[Cap'n Jack]

The cobbles disturb me, greatly.
I'm unhappy with the clothing.
I'm very unhappy with the skyline.
In some illustrations from the period we see three 'pyramid' type roof structures and not two.
The researchers here buggared up the location right from the start because of this.
Up till 1900 the entire property at Berner Street was in the throes of a High Court action between the various renters, and it is highly unlikely that these folks, at each others throats in the High Court would have got together to have the yard resurfaced.
Are the buildings right, Monty?
Is the gate right, Monty?
I think not... old fruit.

[Chris]

I was just throwing that out for goodness sake.

No need to get shirty. I was just explaining why I said what I did.

Would it be better if I made it a rule not to respond to your posts?

[Cap'n Jack]

'All the other reports indicate it is fully cobbled yard, with large irregular paving stones along the gutters and smaller ones down the center of the yard.'

Ally, you must have had your head up your asp when you posted that.
See the 'Morning Advertiser', October 2nd 1888, where a Diemschitz who was actually there would beg to differ with your asp.
He described the yard in entirely the opposite way to you.
'Large irregular 'boulders' in the centre between the wheel ruts, and small paving stones along the gutter'.
See George for a perfect driveway job.

[Monty]

Then you think wrong AP.

Its becoming a constant.

Monty

[Sam Flynn]

AP,

Approx number of seconds in 12 years = 379 million
Approx number of seconds to lay a cobblestone = 20

...do the math, as they say.

[John Bennett]

I know the council must have agreed to the altered the name of the road,when Berner Street became Henriques Street and this undoubtedly was to do with the murder in Dutfield"s Yard.

Just a non-photo related heads up, Nats. Berner Street was renamed Henriques Street following the death of Basil Henriques in 1961. Quite a while after the murder!

[Cap'n Jack]

Sam, I have provided fairly convincing evidence that the yard would not have been resurfaced prior to 1900.
I think the onus now to be on George and many friends to show me that it was.
How many rubber bands do you think I'll flick at a distant sun before that job is done?

[Natalie Severn]

It looked like they were all got up in front of Dutfield"s Yard singing " Slap, bang, here we go again! after skipping along the cobbles shouting"We"ve got a lovely bunch of cocoanuts 000H-oops----cobble stones -see them all a-shining in the sun"
Chris psst! whatever floats your boat!

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

Morning Advertiser, 2nd October 1888—

"The gutter of the yard passage is made of paving stones, the centre being of irregular boulders. The body was lying half on the paving stones."

Illustrated Police News, 6th October 1888—

"The gutter of the yard passage is made of paving stones, the centre being of irregular boulders. The body was lying half on the paving stones."

I think you must mean that either Diemschitz, the Morning Advertiser or Illustrated Police News was wrong.

Regards,

Simon

[Natalie Severn]

Just a non-photo related heads up, Nats. Berner Street was renamed Henriques Street following the death of Basil Henriques in 1961. Quite a while after the murder!

Must have been a nod towards a renewed interest in the case John.Maybe they heard the Ripper had all along been buried in the vaults of the Black Museum and had recently been dug up again!

[Sam Flynn]

Sam, I have provided fairly convincing evidence that the yard would not have been resurfaced prior to 1900.

AP - you've provided opinion to that effect, but no evidence that it wasn't resurfaced. I, likewise, have only provided opinion that I believe it could well have been.

The differentiator between our two opinions is how difficult one imagines (or perhaps I should say, "how difficult one would like to imagine") it would have been to get a barrowfull of cobblestones, and patch any holes or ruts in the yard, during the vasty span of 12 or 13 years. I don't see that possibility as difficult at all.

[Sam Flynn]

Maybe they heard the Ripper had all along been buried in the vaults of the Black Museum and had recently been dug up again!

...lucky they hadn't heard that he wasn't buried under those bloody cobblestones, or we'd never hear the last of it

[Cap'n Jack]

I'm still flicking rubber bands at that distant sun, Sam.

[Monty]

Simon

No, I mean provide me with a description of the yard circa 1900, that would be more relevant.

AP- you have provided no convincing evidence whatsoever, just supposed and suggested based on a 24 hour glimpse. You have erred on certain descriptions as well as other points that, to be frank, you have not studied in as much detail and time as others have. You have been proven wrong on most points.