Dutfields Yard interior photograph, 1900

[George Hutchinson]

Ally - no, it was a serious question. If you have just been full of criticism for the way this image was shown in the circumstances surrounding it, I would like to know what you would have done differently. I could post a great deal more to further this request but as we just about seem to be talking to each other after four years of not doing so, I'd prefer to keep things cordial and accept that you and I (well, you and most people, actually) work on different levels.

PHILIP

[Simon Owen]

Sorry for being a latecomer...

Is it possible to see the photo again , because I wasn't here when it was shown.

Could someone PM me a copy or a link ?

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Simon. I've been sent PMs asking for it to go up again, and I'm afraid it's a no. If someone took a screen shot (it was put up as a Flash to prevent direct downloading) then there's not much we can do about that but I won't be asking Thomas to give normal access to it again via the link until the book's done.

Having this photo has brought forth all sorts of trolls and pathetic nay-sayers without a clue what they're talking about and it's becoming a bit of a millstone. I'd be happy for this to just pass from memory until the research is finished. You WILL get to see it eventually.

PHILIP

[mac-the-kipper]

Having this photo has brought forth all sorts of trolls and pathetic nay-sayers without a clue what they're talking about and it's becoming a bit of a millstone.
PHILIP

It's a real pain ain't it? I know exactly what you mean about a millstone. I sometimes wonder if it isn't better to not find something regarding this case.

[Howard Brown]

Dear Phil:

Quick in and out here...

Have you been able to peruse the 7 questions I came up with for this week's program?

If not,old man, please let me know.

Thanks...

[Limehouse]

Hi Simon. I've been sent PMs asking for it to go up again, and I'm afraid it's a no. If someone took a screen shot (it was put up as a Flash to prevent direct downloading) then there's not much we can do about that but I won't be asking Thomas to give normal access to it again via the link until the book's done.

Having this photo has brought forth all sorts of trolls and pathetic nay-sayers without a clue what they're talking about and it's becoming a bit of a millstone. I'd be happy for this to just pass from memory until the research is finished. You WILL get to see it eventually.

PHILIP

Phillip,

I didn't see the picture itself but I have been keeping up to date with the comments posted here. I think it was generous of you to provide an opportunity for people to see the picture and contribute to a debate. I am sure your new book will be well worth the wait.

[George Hutchinson]

Limehouse - your reaction has been 90% of the response. It's the other 10% I am getting annoyed with! I'm not after any back-slapping on this, I just want people to know that when every EXPERT has looked at it and agreed, then it's just possible they might be RIGHT!

How - never had anything from you about questions. Seriously - nada. PM me with them as if you e-mailed them, they never came in.

(Chris, by the way - I think you thought the same as I did about Mac's post, so I'm glad I wasn't the only one who misunderstood it. It seems he was actually saying the opposite of how the post looked but it was a bit subtle. We've been exchanging PMs and there's no 'issue' here with him at all)

PHILIP

[Howard Brown]

Brick:

Ask and ye shall recieve,Mishter Tourmeister:

1.What were those people doing in the photo shoot ?
2.What tips are you willing to offer for inspired collectors?

3.Panel or Phil: Is there any importance that one can glean from this photograph of Dutfield's Yard in terms of perception or a redirection of previously held observations regarding the 1st murder on Sept. 29th-30th?


4.. For Phil: How long did you hold back the photo after you were certain it was of Dutfield's Yard?
5.. For Phil: How frequently would you estimate yards or alleys get repaved or restoned, in that section of the East End or perhaps,is this particular yard a frequently used byway?
6. How encouraged are you,Phil AND panel, by Phil's find in regard to more photographs being available at some point as a result of this finding?
7. Will this find, in your collective view, tend to see prices escalate for other photos of the period in relation to the Case,as a result of all the interest this one has been responsible for?

[Dr. John Watson]

Criticism of Mr. Hutchinson for not sharing his photo is unwarranted. Years ago, the president of a society studying the assassination of President Lincoln discovered a long-lost confession by one of the conspirators. It was a tremendous find, but she shared it with only two other society members, one of whom was writing a book about the assassination. At his request, she kept her discovery secret until his book had been published – ten years later! During that period, several long-time researchers had died and others had published books and papers, all in complete ignorance of the valuable new information contained in the confession. I strongly criticized the society president for withholding her discovery. As Society president, I felt she had a responsibility to timely share her discovery with all of the members by publishing it in our Society newsletter. Instead, she opted to favor one Society member – a close friend – over the others whom she represented as president, an action which I found thoroughly dishonest. Had she found the confession while researching for her own planned book, “on her own time” so to speak, it would have been a different matter. But that clearly wasn’t the case.

As far as I can see, Mr. Hutchinson was acting on his own behalf when he found and purchased the Dutfield photograph. He has no obligation – moral or otherwise – to share his find with the rest of us. He has every right to do as he wishes with the photo. Announcing his find here - and then hiding it from us - may seem selfish at first, but it’s a smart move on the part of anyone planning a book. It certainly makes one anxious to see the book, if only to view the photograph! The question is, will people buy a book simply to see a single picture?

[George Hutchinson]

John - I did not 'hide' the photo. I didn't want to show it, but under pressure from various posters I had it put it up for people to see for 24 hours, against my wishes but through an act of altruism for the sake of others.

I also did not actually WANT to announce the photo to the world at the moment as I had forseen the kind of reaction it would get from a few of the more unstable people on this site. However, there are two reasons why I did so. Firstly, I had just given an hour-long lecture on it in America. It's impossible that it would not have been announced on here, followed by a flurry of questions and then people demanding to know why the person who discovered it hadn't told the Ripper community - damned if I do and damned if I don't. Secondly, there were several people who knew about this image already. I had trusted them with this information as sacrosanct until I was ready to talk about it, having done all the research on it and on the photographer. A few had let me down to a small degree by showing it to at least one other person but the others had been totally tight-lipped about it. It was not fair to them to expect them to keep it quiet as if it had never existed (as is evident when you see the comments from those people at the top of the thread before it went the usual Casebook tits-up with pages of wasted nonsense from people who clearly know no better).

I guess you know very little about the revenue produced from writing books unless you happen to be in the self-promotion game and willing to sell your soul for a bit of fame, regardless of how low-grade your work might be.

My first book was the best-selling book in the series my first publisher had ever had, and they are a publisher of national reknown. It has currently made me approximately minimum wage for the six weeks I spent writing it.

Do you really think I am interested in the amount of books a specialist volume like this will shift?

PHILIP

[Khanada]

The question is, will people buy a book simply to see a single picture?

Considering that the writer is Philip, I know that I myself will be very glad to see that book come out.

[Brenda]

The question is, will people buy a book simply to see a single picture?

Any Ripperologist worth their salt will want the book.

[Mike Covell]

What student of the crimes wouldn't want to purchase a book that contain's a picture of a crime scene, previously unseen?

I have already told Mr. Hutchinson I want a copy, and wish him every luck in his endevour.

My book shelf has all manner of titles from Baphomet rituals to Black Magic Rituals, From books that read more like fiction, to books that I read for a good laugh!

[Ally]

You ask what I would have done Phil. Okay, just remember, you did ask. Twice even. So it's what I would have done and why I would have done it.

If you didn't want to reveal the photo, then you shouldn't have started a thread. You say you were pressured into revealing the photo and posting the thread in the first place. Peer pressure isn’t an excusable reason for doing anything. You say someone else would have posted the information if you hadn’t and you are no doubt correct, but you aren’t responsible for what other people do, you are only responsible for what you do, and if someone else had posted the information, you would have been perfectly within your rights to draw your line, say, “I have no wish to discuss this publicly at this time as I am not in a position to reveal the photo to the general public”. And then stand by that line.

I would have defended that decision because you have the right to not speak about it if you so choose. But you did choose to speak about it of your own volition, you did start the thread, so when you are doing your “I have a very special photo and no you can’t see it schtick”, it comes off badly. If you didn't want to show it, you never should have started discussing it, because once you announce it, of course people are going to want to see it, and when you are saying you have it, but won't show it, it amounts to nothing more than a "nyah, nyah, nyah". Now if you had a book that would be published in the next month and you were teasing for a brief time to get excitement up pre-launch, a month away, that would be annoying, but excusable. But when there is no book even close to publication and you are still saying I have it and you'll just have to wait...bad form.

I wouldn't blame others for "pressuring" you to post. No one held a gun to your head. In the end it was your choice, both to start the thread and to post the photo. If you hadn't posted the photo, for the reasons explained above, you were of course going to come off looking like a total kak. But you still could have made the choice not to.

So you ask what I would have done? In the year that I knew I was going to be presenting this at the conference, I would have thought it over and if I decided my rights were what was most vital to me in the presentation of this photo, watermarked the puppy with my name in big letters, and once I was done presenting at the conference, gone online and said, Hey just got done with my lecture, it was on my find of the dutfield’s yard photo, here’s the photo, and posted it; if necessary on my very own website prepared for that purpose. None of the dramatics, none of the game playing that made the story for days about you and not about what was actually important: The photo.

The whole “show it and withdraw it” is ludicrous. And pointless. People have copied it, people will pass it back and forth. The image you put up on the web is now out there for sure and as it wasn’t posted anywhere I am affiliated with, I am not constrained by a need to protect the source, so I have no compunction about passing that copied version along and I imagine most others feel the same as it was publicly displayed. I know of people who have gotten copies of the GOOD version of the photo from various people and of course, they have all been told not to tell anyone and not to pass it on. You can’t keep a lid on something you sent to a dozen people in the year leading up to its release. Everyone knows you showed it to half the world of Ripperology so they feel quite comfortable passing it along, especially now that the news is out, secure in the knowledge that you can’t really track back who got it from whom. They wouldn’t have done it before you unveiled at the conference, (although some did) but what had already been spreading slowly will no doubt speed like wildfire now.

If you wanted to keep this under wraps, then you should have kept it under wraps. There are a few people who have something to lose if they break trust with people in the community, so they won’t pass it on, but most people don’t really have anything to lose. If they passed along the photo, what would happen to them? You’d be mad at them. That’s about it. That’s not really going to keep the vast majority of people from passing it around. And the further it gets from the source, you, the less reticent people will be about passing it on. It’s only a matter of time til someone posts the image somewhere. It’s going to happen. And with the amount of good copies circulating out there, there’s no guarantee it will have your name watermarked on it.


So that's what I would have done. And remember, you did ask ..twice.

[George Hutchinson]

Ally - thanks for your reply (and thanks for keeping it civil). I'm reading this just before going to work so I don't have time to answer the allegations at the moment but I'll get onto this this evening.

I agree with most of what you say but it is from your subjective viewpoint and most of your opinions stem from suppositions and simply an alternative - not better - approach. There is nothing to say that it wouldn't have been even worse if I had followed your lines. Effectively, what you are suggesting is the 'right' way is only a 'different' way. For example - me setting up a website and having my name on the photo? Yep, that's going to be really endearing, I don't think. The way it was finally presented was the result of suggestions from Stephen, Jane, Thomas and my own ideas.

But I'm getting ahead of myself. I don't have to justify anything I did and I have no regrets about the way it was done whatsoever and I do actually resent the suggestion that this thread is all about 'me'. I can hardly be held responsible for other people choosing to say 'well done' (and yes, it was quite obvious that some of your posts were trying to defer that). I have made it clear from the outset - and I repeated it last night - that I was just lucky to have been in the right place at the right time. It doesn't make me a better historian; it makes me someone who hit gold on eBay.

PHILIP