Dutfields Yard interior photograph, 1900

[Monty]

Hi Robert,

D = Dwelling
T = Tile roof
S = Shop
The numbers in the building corners 2 or 3 is how many floors there are.
The numbers along the Berner Street side are house numbers.
The 674, 676 is a question for Jake. The building with 670 by it is a stable.

Rob

Rob et al,


670 etc is the building numbers for those not on the street, in yards for example. Most of the time these structures appeared at a later date.

Monty

[Jake L]

I think Jake may be in error on the date. The only Goads of Dutfields Yard I know about is the 1899 one, but I could be wrong.

Rob

(smacks Rob's ears)

The BL manuscript/draft version of the area is from 1889. Interestingly enough, the draft map had several later corrections to it (different pens, items crossed over etc), possibly building up to 1899.

Most of the separate printed add-on correction sheets to this one (as well as the "final" one in Ramsey) are from 1899.

Parts of Berner St, Fairclough st etc had a "final" printed sheet in 1890. I don't know whether such a 1890 sheet was ever produced for this area or whether the final sheet was pushed back for ten years for some reason.

In Dutfield's Yard, there are several changes as regards blng usage during the decade.

The IWEC bldng is pencilled as having "Printer's 1st" and "Men's Club" (in addition to the standard Dwelling/Shop markers. The "Printers" would be the "Arbeter Fraint Press", I reckon. Both markings have gone in the later plan.

The building in the NW corner is marked as "Sack Fac.", whereas in the 1899 one it is "Forge" The former could refer to the Hindley business.
The bldng at the corner of Berner/Fairclough streets is marked as a pub (The Nelson?) in the manuscript plan, whereas it is a shop in the 1890 one.

Attached is a shot of the 1889 pencil draft overlaid on top of the 1899 plan +OS.

--

From Fishman we know that the clubhouse was deemed unsafe for club usage by the LCC inspectors (in the nineties, but I don't have the date at hand). Therefore the horizontal beams are possibly ones used to shore the building up.

According to the plan, the gateway is nine feet wide (seems to tally with the verbal descriptions)

In the photo, the location of the stairs at the back differs from how we see it in the 1888 illustrations. However, the steps are on the South side already in the 1889-> draft.

The long numbers are insurance-specific lot(?) codes.

Great to see this brilliant find by Philip to see the light!!

/Jake

[Rob Clack]

Just don't let it go to your head. Some people get a little bit of recognition and they become insufferable. I'd hate to have to beat you.

Too late, I've printed out your post and framed it

(smacks Rob's ears)

Ouch, that hurt

I did say I could be wrong on this. There wasn't a 1890 version that I saw at the British Library, just the 1899 one. I had a look at the draft versions (two I think) and I couldn't spot a date on the Berner Street one.

Don't know if this helps with the additional numbers. It's from the Map Key for the 1938 editions:



All the best

Rob

[anna]

Hi all,
I'm with Dan,I think Jack was still in the yard,and in the shadows until Diemschutz went into the club.If that was the case,that poor pony must have been well freaked out..he senses something at his feet that he scents...and then a while later,when his master has left him,that same scent squeezes past him to leave.
ANNA.

[Monty]

Rob,

So its pretty much as I said in my text?

Jake,

Where the fandango have you been, on holiday or something?

Monty

[Matty]

Okay so, after looking at this photo in detail, I have come to a conclusion. I am less convinced than ever that whatshisname with the pony actually interrupted JtR in the act.

To me this is a very good point and one that has made me question my own long held belief that Liz was a Ripper victim. If Diemschutz and his pony did not disturb the kill then it could follow that the killer had finished killing Liz and had no intention of further mutilating her and therefor was probably not Jack.

Hello by the way, I'm not exactly new here but have been away for a very long time

[caz]

Morning Dutfield's Yarders,

They definitely look like cobblestones in the Furniss drawing, for what that's worth.

And don't forget that when Liz and Kate rode their tandem down Berner St Kate said to Liz: "I've never come this way before" and Liz replied: "Must be the cobbles".

This can't be cobblers because it came from John Pope de Luckless.

Love,

Caz
X

PS I can certainly see Jack standing very still in the darkness, heart pounding, until pony dude dashes inside. Well, obviously I can't see him because it was too dark, but you see what I mean.

[Rob Clack]

Rob,

So its pretty much as I said in my text?

Monty

Yeah, pretty much. What was throwing me was that there were dwellings in Dutfields Yard and I would have expected or thought they would have had there own numbers separate to Berner Street. I've just had a look at the Millers Court Goads and they have the same 3 digit numbers for the houses in the court and not for example 1 Millers Court etc. Just seemed a bit odd.

Rob

[Trevor Marriott]

Having seen the birds eye pic of the Dutfields yard site I am still not convinced that the body was found where you all say it was.

As I said previous there were street lamps in Berner St so there must have been a certain amount of light in Berner St as we know witnesses stated they thought they saw Kelly with various people prior to her death. Taking that into account Diemschultz stated he drove his cart into the yard and at the point he stopped it was pitch black. Now if it is to be accepted that Strides body was where you all suggest it was which was very close to the street then surely there would have been enough light for D to see the body as soon as he drove from the street into the alley.

I would still suggest that there may have been some kind of a gate or double doors at the bottom of the alley opening into what I would describe as the actual yard and is also described by a witness below as a courtyard.

Another witness also gave evidence that he also entered the club by using that rear entrance so it is possible D entered by the rear door as another witness stated that the front door was locked. So if he was as close as is suggested surely he would have initially gone to the front door of the club and even if it was locked he would have banged on it to attract attention

Mr. Edward Johnson: I live at 100, Commercial-road, and am assistant to Drs. Kaye and Blackwell. On Sunday morning last, at a few minutes past one o'clock, I received a call from Constable 436 H. After informing Dr. Blackwell, who was in bed, of the case, I accompanied the officer to Berner-street, and in a courtyard adjoining No. 40 I was shown the figure of a woman lying on her left side.
William Weiss extract from his testimony

At the south side of the premises is a courtyard, to which entrance can be obtained through a double door, in one section of which is a smaller one, which is used when the larger barriers are closed (Large barriers I would interpret to be large gates at front)


.

[Jake L]

Ouch, that hurt

There wasn't a 1890 version that I saw at the British Library, just the 1899 one. I had a look at the draft versions (two I think) and I couldn't spot a date on the Berner Street one.

Rob

It was a very, very light smack, don't be so sensitive

So it seems that the 1890 one never got made, unlike the adjacent plans to the North & West, for example. The "late eighties" bldng usage, crossed over, seems to indicate that a 1890ish plan was in the works. The bit by bit corrections in the draft suggests that they returned to the project a couple of times before the 1899 plan.

It seems that the draft date (along with some other pencilled stuff) didn't make it to through the BL photocopy process (just checked my copy). However, I did jot it down to my notes while I was there, so it was somewhere to be seen - also I remember that I did a double-take on that one, cos I knew the Ramsay one to be a later one.



Monty,

How did you guess?

[Matty]

I am not against revising what we hold to be true but scanning all the inquest testimony there is nothing to indicate a second set of gates.

At the south side of the premises is a courtyard, to which entrance can be obtained through a double door, in one section of which is a smaller one, which is used when the larger barriers are closed

I think all that is being described there is a Wicket gate in the main gates.

Constable Henry Lamb "Arriving at the gateway of No. 40 I observed something dark lying on the ground on the right-hand side."

Arriving at the gateway of No. 40 that to me sounds like the gate way to No.40 i.e. right at the front.

[Trevor Marriott]

Well as i said yesterday its all open to how you asess and evaluate "ALL" of the evidence.

Everyone keeps citing Pc lamb, but his evidnce isnt conclusive read all of the witnesses testimony from the inquest. You will see how inconclusive it is about where excatly where the murder took place.

Another point i want to mention again is that would any killer let alone Jack risk attacking and murdering a victim so close to the main street with people walking about. Surley he would lure his victim away from the main street down into the darkness of the yard itself or is that suggestion illogical

In any event why are we getting all hot under the collar when we know Stride wasnt a Ripper victim

[Chris]

I am not against revising what we hold to be true but scanning all the inquest testimony there is nothing to indicate a second set of gates.

And if there had been a second set (and I can't imagine what on earth its function would have been), obviously when witnesses referred to the gates, they would have specified which set they meant.

[Rob Clack]

I was just after a bit of sympathy Jake I've no doubt your right. It did seem that between the 1890 and 1899 versions they did add more detail to the maps. An example is the Greenfield Street one where the 1890 was completed and printed but lacked a lot of detail and the 1899 where it was finished with a lot more detail to it. The same can be said for the section of Old Montague Street which housed the Mortuary.

Anyway, this drawing from 'The Pictorial News' shows the double doors at the entrance to Dutfields Yard:



and the from 'The Weekly Dispatch' showing the other side of the doors and the smaller door built in. It also shows the murder spot with an 'X'.



Rob

[Trevor Marriott]

But no one can prove conclusivley that there were not a set of either gates or doors. In fact i would never have considered this had it not been for looking at the new photo of Dutfileds yard yesterday. It put a new light on how i personally perceived the crime scene to have been. o belived that the gates at rthe fron opnede out into the yard when in fcat now we know they open out into a passegeway/driveway