Dutfields Yard interior photograph, 1900

[thomas]

here's a scan from furniss in better quality.

take care
thomas.

[The Grave Maurice]

OK, I'm glad to see that this thread has cooled off. For a while there I wouldn't have touched it with a fistful of thimbles.

What I would like to comment on is the quality of the photograph. The photographer knew enough to stand back from the yard and place herself in the middle of Berner Street. She also, it seems, knew that that the photo would be much more dramatic if it were peopled with local residents. But the best thing is the angle. She seems to have known that a low shot would be much more effective, and she was, of course, right.

It is an excellent shot with what was then, I assume, one of those top viewfinder early Kodak cameras. Nearly everyone in 1900 would have shot this at slightly above waist height, but this photographer must have been virtually sitting on the Berner Street cobbles. The result is exceptional.

What I most look forward to is learning her name and a bit about her. Get to it, Philip.

[Ally]

Thanks Ally, that's probably the nicest thing you've said about anyone on these boards. I'm getting all misty eyed now.

Rob X

Just don't let it go to your head. Some people get a little bit of recognition and they become insufferable. I'd hate to have to beat you.

Gristle,

I am sure everyone who viewed it copied it, so you can probably find a copy if you ask around.

[Robert]

Hi Leatherface

With the impulsiveness thing, if you are right, then would you say that this would suggest that Jack entered Kelly's room after she went to bed, as opposed to walking home with her as a client? If he accompanied her home as a client, then we seem to see the very opposite of impulsiveness, for he not only waited until he got into her room before killing her, but even waited until she'd undressed and lain down.

[Ally]

Okay so, after looking at this photo in detail, I have come to a conclusion. I am less convinced than ever that whatshisname with the pony actually interrupted JtR in the act. I am not really a spatially creative person, I don't "see" what's described, so before I couldn't adequately visualize the alley, but I am fairly convinced given the space confines and what not, now that I've seen the alley, that Pony Dude ( sorry massive name aphasia right at this second) would have HEARD Jack running away or sensed movement, no matter how dark it was. The alley isn't big enough.

So...don't think Jack was interrupted in the act. My thoughts only prompted by the photograph and probably shouldn't be posted here in any rate.

[George Hutchinson]

Actually, Ally, I think that's exactly the kind of post that should be here. It's an idea based on what you saw in the photo and that's completely relevant and the sort of thing I was vainly hoping people would do.

PHILIP

PS : Louis Diemschutz, by the way.

[Leatherface]

Great point. Going on a personal hunch, he may have been imulsive, but I don't think he was stupid. A gift horse presented herself to Jack and even he knew the potential for what he could do if he could get alone. Either that or (and I am totally riffing here), he knew of the fact that MJK had a room that he could be taken to (I know, Barnett, who I don't think did it). In the case of The Yard (and Mitre Square for that matter, considering that small amount of time between police beats), Jack was exteremely risky that evening. Maybe (still riffing) he knew he needed to get indoors to satiate the growing desire for pure destruction of the female form.

R

[Brenda]

The photo of this alley and the narrowness of it - it makes it tempting to believe it WAS Jack that killed Elizabeth Stride, simply because of the risk the killer took. Our man Jack was nothing if not a first degree risk-taker.

[Dan Norder]

Anyone know where Tom is, by the way? I would have expected him to have commented on this business.

Hey Philip,

Tom has had extremely limited computer access for several months now. I emailed him about it but I guess he hasn't seen it yet. For as infrequently as I've seen him online, though, your book may be out before he even knows he missed it.

now that I've seen the alley, that Pony Dude ( sorry massive name aphasia right at this second) would have HEARD Jack running away or sensed movement, no matter how dark it was. The alley isn't big enough.

So...don't think Jack was interrupted in the act.

Hey Ally,

Well, certainly it'd be difficult to believe that Diemschutz wouldn't have heard/sensed something if Jack had been moving nearby while he was there (though the noise from the club could have masked some of it), but Jack could have been further back in the yard or around the corner at the time the cart came in (after hearing it approach) and then waited until Diemschutz went inside (to fetch help and check on his wife) before running off. If that's how it happened he's damned lucky Diemschutz didn't yell for help and summon assistance while standing there -- or perhaps Diemschutz is lucky he didn't try.

[nicole]

Hi all,

HALLELUJAH...PROGRESSION!

After reading through about 20 pages (or so) of garbage (bickering, negativity, and crap from TM and AP), we have something! Something refreshing....

Ally says:

Okay so, after looking at this photo in detail, I have come to a conclusion. I am less convinced than ever that whatshisname with the pony actually interrupted JtR in the act. I am not really a spatially creative person, I don't "see" what's described, so before I couldn't adequately visualize the alley, but I am fairly convinced given the space confines and what not, now that I've seen the alley, that Pony Dude ( sorry massive name aphasia right at this second) would have HEARD Jack running away or sensed movement, no matter how dark it was. The alley isn't big enough.

So...don't think Jack was interrupted in the act. My thoughts only prompted by the photograph

And Phil followed up with;

Actually, Ally, I think that's exactly the kind of post that should be here. It's an idea based on what you saw in the photo and that's completely relevant and the sort of thing I was vainly hoping people would do.

AAAHHH!!! This is the Casebook I know and love...where evidence is discussed, and opinions are offered in a good ol' civil fashion!!!

Lead the way guys and ignore the trolls....

Most sincerely,
Nicole

[Ash]

Thanks, Alan. You're doing well!

Cheers Phil. I really couldn't have answered any further anyway as I had to run out to do my Atlanta stand-up gig, at which I was offered another gig tomorrow night at the same club as part of the support bill for Gary Gulman who is a pretty big comic here in the States.

I know this has nothing whatsoever to do with the thread, but I'm dead chuffed, and as much of what's on here belongs in an insane asylum anyway, I figure I might as well add to it!

[drstrange169]

Hello All,

http://www.jacktheripper.de/dutfields/

All I get is Error 404. What am I doing wrong?

[tn_vol]

Dutfields Yard

Hi All,
Speaking of Jack being on the scene when Deimschultz arrives it was stated that the passage was pitch black. If Diemschultz could not make out the body of Long Liz could it not be possible that he would not be able to see someone stealing away from the scene further back through the yard??? And of the issue of hearing such an escape, are the shoes or boots of the time made of material that would have made noise in such a getaway??? Some have suggested that they yard would have been filled with mud, manure which would have muffled the sound. But if it was cobblestones then maybe more of a noise would have been made. Just pondering????

[Fisherman]

Simon Wood writes:

"Blackwell has Stride lying obliquely across the yard with her neck on a wheel rut, which is a far cry from PC Lamb's testimony"

Actually, itīs not, Simon. When Blackwell spoke of her lying obliquely across the yard, he was referring to the axis of the body, I think. I have written about this in a dissertation called "Blackwells testimony", which can be found here on Casebook. The five main witnesses, Blackwell, Phillips, Johnston, Spooner and Lamb are actually in accordance with each other on how she was lying.

On the topic brought up by Trevor Marriott, where he cites Eagle as saying that Strides feet were some six feet from the gates, I think that Eagle was speaking about the gates in a closed position, meaning that they would have come near her feet as they were swung up against the walls.

The best, Simon, Trevor!
Fisherman

[George Hutchinson]

Hi Fisherman. That is EXACTLY what Eagle was saying, even though few other reports totally tally with this. The most common report is that the open gate almost touched her feet meaning, with the gate being 4' 6" approx, her feet were about 5' into the yard. Eagle was referring to the swing on the gate and the point at which it is constant.

Dr Strange - I'm afraid, as was said on this thread several times, there was only access to the image for 24 hours. It is something that was done under duress as I didn't want to show it at all at this stage.

TN - most men had clumpy, noisy boots. I expect this would include JTR. Some reports of the time claim the yard was partly cobbled (I'm using the incorrect word 'cobbled' for the sake of comprehension) and it's clearly properly cobbled by 1900. It's even possible that the gully you just saw (at lo-res and small, remember, at this stage) was one lain after the event. We don't know at present if the yard was entirely redone of just filled in or if, indeed, it was always properly cobbled to start with.

Alan - What can I say? Great news! It was worth it after all, then. I hope this thread has given you a lot of comedy material, though I expect some of it would make as much sense to a layman audience as it has done to us lot.

PHILIP