All Roads Lead to Dorset St.,

[Batman]

Not in connection with the Eddowes murder, they didn't. Even in her case, the unidentified shed only seems to appear in one sentence, in one early report, in one newspaper. And the notion that the front room of #26 was the ONLY "shed" in Dorset Street - or "off" Dorset Street - is rather hard to believe.

The very reference given to you by Wickerman from the DT of Nov 10th is the one where they identified this shed in question. There even tell you that it is a warehouse for the storage of costers' barrows.

Even makes sense because coster's barrows are nice makeshift beds when not in use.

https://www.tate.org.uk/art/images/work/L/L02/L02452_10.jpg

Prater puts the shed under her, as Mary's room, but we think she didn't mean 'directly' under her. Just the floor below.

[MrBarnett]

Not in connection with the Eddowes murder, they didn't. Even in her case, the unidentified shed only seems to appear in one sentence, in one early report, in one newspaper. And the notion that the front room of #26 was the ONLY "shed" in Dorset Street - or "off" Dorset Street - is rather hard to believe.

For what it's worth, no. 6 is the only property mentioned above that was not apparently in the hands of Crossingham or McCarthy. It was a rather small building with a passageway through the ground floor to an open space at the rear. In the land tax records it is listed as a house and stables.

[Sam Flynn]

For what it's worth, no. 6 is the only property mentioned above that was not apparently in the hands of Crossingham or McCarthy. It was a rather small building with a passageway through the ground floor to an open space at the rear. In the land tax records it is listed as a house and stables.

Interesting, Gary, not least because (a) stables are more spacious and decidedly more shed-like than McCarthy's front room; and (b) Eddowes used the "6 Dorset Street" address on one of her pawn tickets.

[Sam Flynn]

The very reference given to you by Wickerman from the DT of Nov 10th is the one where they identified this shed in question

No it doesn't. The report describes McCarthy's "shed" in an account of the Kelly murder, and doesn't in any way connect it with Eddowes.

There even tell you that it is a warehouse for the storage of costers' barrows.

The Eddowes story in the DT of 3rd Oct doesn't mention anything about that particular shed being used to store barrows, only 20 or so "houseless" unfortunates.

Even makes sense because coster's barrows are nice makeshift beds when not in use.

Good luck trying to fit 20 costermongers' barrows into the front room of a house, whose floor-space I guess would not be much bigger than that of Mary Kelly's room. The photograph you yourself posted should give you an idea of how logistically tricky, if not impossible, that would be.

And, as I said, I'd find it very hard to believe that McCarthy would leave his storeroom open so that penniless rough sleepers could use it as a drop-in centre. For one thing, that would make little economic sense and, for another, his stuff could have been nicked.

Rest assured, if Eddowes did indeed occasionally crash out in a "shed off Dorset Street", it almost certainly wasn't McCarthy's indoor barrow-depot.

Prater puts the shed under her, as Mary's room, but we think she didn't mean 'directly' under her. Just the floor below.

No, for the same reason as I wouldn't describe my own room as "above the garage" (see earlier). When Prater said that her room was "above the shed", she meant exactly that, which fits perfectly with the rest of her testimony. And independent sources of information, too; there's another report which tells of a couple occupying the room above Kelly.

[Batman]

"the first-floor front, facing Dorset-street, being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows."

The article is telling the reader what the first-floor front was used for. So we know from this that it is used for storage and that the barrows are in there.

Kelly's room was 15ft. square feet (same article).

https://whitechapeljack.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/millers_court_map.jpg

Notice that Prater's room is exactly located in this diagram.
Her room could have spanned across Mary's and the storage room.

You can easily guess that Mary's bed is a bit bigger than a barrow. How many barrows could one get into #26 Dorset St.? You could probably get at least eight in there. That's eight potential beds for the night.

McCarthy would know the women there because they would likely be the ones renting rooms from him when they had the money. Sometimes they couldn't pay so likely went there as he gave the room to someone else until they could pay again... or move on completely.

[packers stem]

My guess is that McCarthy wouldn't waste such valuable space on junk and that the warehouse was really a 'penny hang'

[MrBarnett]

My guess is that McCarthy wouldn't waste such valuable space on junk and that the warehouse was really a 'penny hang'

If it was somewhere the costers left their barrows overnight, I would imagine they would have had to pay for the privilege. Unless they were all supplied with keys, or McCarthy and co were available 24/7, the door must have been left unlocked. In that scenario the place would have inevitably have been used by the homeless.

It has to be said, though, that door nos are something that are often wrong in press reports. The journalists at the time must have been real fish out of water in somewhere like Dorset street. On at least a couple of occasions they seem to have confused Miller's Court with Paternoster Row, and the fascinating 'Blood Alley' article of 1901 got Billy Mahers' name wrong (Myers) and attributed a murder to him that he hadn't committed.

[Batman]

You know the idea that Eddowes may have stayed in the room right next to Mary Kelly seems really hard for some to accept but at the same time who here thinks that Mary Kelly wasn't investigated given that Eddowes had a said her name was 'Mary Kelly' and on her persons a mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots. She was known as Kate Kelly. She gave her name to police as 'Mary Ann Kelly' of 6 Fashion Street. Using the #6 again from Dorset Street.

Yet are we to believe that not a single officer or investigator concerning themselves with these details didn't meet and question the very Mary Kelly who would become the very next victim of the same person that killed Stride?

This suggests inside knowledge. Someone working with LE investigating Eddowes discovered Mary Kelly through this investigation and targetted her. She may even have met him. Knew he was an officer. Felt safe going back to her room with one. Anyway, that's pure speculation, but how could they miss Mary Kelly in that investigation and fail to mention this in later reports (albeit they could be burned up and gone or stolen)?

[Sam Flynn]

"the first-floor front, facing Dorset-street, being over a shed or warehouse used for the storage of costers' barrows."

The article is telling the reader what the first-floor front was used for. So we know from this that it is used for storage and that the barrows are in there.

I repeat, that article is referring to the Kelly murder, and it doesn't link the "shed or warehouse" to Catherine Eddowes. Likewise, the report of 3rd October makes no mention of the shed "off Dorset Street" being used as a storage space for barrows or anything else; it only says that it was used by a score or so "houseless" women.

Kelly's room was 15ft. square feet (same article).

Still not enough to accommodate a 20 dossers, whether they were perched on the barrows or not.

https://whitechapeljack.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/millers_court_map.jpg

Notice that Prater's room is exactly located in this diagram.

It doesn't. It shows two arrows, one pointing to the first floor front (the one that actually IS "above the shed") and the other pointing to the room above Kelly, which is not "above the shed" except in the most goalpost-moving definition of that phrase.

You can easily guess that Mary's bed is a bit bigger than a barrow. How many barrows could one get into #26 Dorset St.? You could probably get at least eight in there. That's eight potential beds for the night.

I daresay it would be possible to get a lot more barrows and dossers in if you used a crowbar... which appears to be the tool of choice for some ripperologists

If Eddowes did occasionally occupy a "shed", then the stables behind 6 Dorset Street, identified in the recent post by Gary Barnett, strike me as a strong candidate, not least because 6 Dorset Street was an address we know Eddowes to have used on a pawn ticket. That's not to say it was the only shed in/off Dorset Street in which she might have crashed out; I shouldn't be surprised if there were others, too, and of a decidedly more shed-like nature than the front room of #26.

McCarthy would know the women there because they would likely be the ones renting rooms from him when they had the money. Sometimes they couldn't pay so likely went there as he gave the room to someone else until they could pay again... or move on completely.

There is absolutely no mention anywhere - not from the press, not from McCarthy, Bowyer, Venturney, Cox, Prater or anyone else - about the front room of #26 being used as a pop-in parlour for penniless waifs and strays.

[Batman]

https://whitechapeljack.com/wp-conte..._court_map.jpg

Look again at No. 20 (upstairs) Elizabeth Prater. Notice the 2 x ? that are there. One is above Kelly's room and the other is above the storage room. How do you know her room isn't partially over both?

Either way, Prater said the shed was the room under her. So we know they are calling this storage room 'the shed'.

One of those arrows points at the storage room. The other to MKs.

While the stables is a good find, a stables isn't a shed and if she did stay there, then it is the only truth she told in among a list of lies. Why tell the truth about that and lie about everything else? That makes no sense.

Anyway, that storage room is much bigger than you are making it out to be. You are also going for the max number of 20 despite the journalist saying 10 to 20.

[DJA]

You know the idea that Eddowes may have stayed in the room right next to Mary Kelly seems really hard for some to accept but at the same time who here thinks that Mary Kelly wasn't investigated given that Eddowes had a said her name was 'Mary Kelly' and on her persons a mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots. She was known as Kate Kelly. She gave her name to police as 'Mary Ann Kelly' of 6 Fashion Street. Using the #6 again from Dorset Street.

Yet are we to believe that not a single officer or investigator concerning themselves with these details didn't meet and question the very Mary Kelly who would become the very next victim of the same person that killed Stride?

This suggests inside knowledge. Someone working with LE investigating Eddowes discovered Mary Kelly through this investigation and targetted her. She may even have met him. Knew he was an officer. Felt safe going back to her room with one. Anyway, that's pure speculation, but how could they miss Mary Kelly in that investigation and fail to mention this in later reports (albeit they could be burned up and gone or stolen)?

6 Dorset Street backed onto 32 White's Row.

Personally reckon Abberline was put on the case to ensure Henry ..... oops,Jack the Ripper was not caught.

Edit. Ironically,in the late 17th century,White's Row was known as New Fashion Street.

[Batman]

Also there is this question....

Do you think that Mary Kelly wasn't investigated given that Eddowes had a said her name was 'Mary Kelly' and on her persons a mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots?

Eddowes was known as Kate Kelly. She gave her name to police as 'Mary Ann Kelly' of 6 Fashion Street. Using the #6 again from Dorset Street.

Do you think that not a single officer or investigator concerning themselves with these details didn't meet and question the very Mary Kelly who would become the very next victim of the same person that killed Eddowes?

[packers stem]

Do you think that Mary Kelly wasn't investigated given that Eddowes had a said her name was 'Mary Kelly' and on her persons a mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots?

Eddowes was known as Kate Kelly. She gave her name to police as 'Mary Ann Kelly' of 6 Fashion Street. Using the #6 again from Dorset Street.

Do you think that not a single officer or investigator concerning themselves with these details didn't meet and question the very Mary Kelly who would become the very next victim of the same person that killed Eddowes?

She wasn't known as Kate Kelly at all though
That's from a single newspaper report ,became part of ripperlore for convenience
She was always known as Kate Conway prior to going to Kent
For some reason she didn't want to use the name Conway once the murders began ..... can you think what that reason might be ?

[Batman]

6 Dorset Street backed onto 32 White's Row.

Personally reckon Abberline was put on the case to ensure Henry ..... oops,Jack the Ripper was not caught.

I think they somewhere along the line have realized they made a big mistake and have messed up which allowed for Eddowes to be murdered as well as Kelly. That they are linked. That their investigation of Eddowes directly resulted in Kelly being targetted and murdered. That Mary Kelly was known to them through the ripper investigation of Eddowes and that this is something they kept quiet.

I think an officer or officers were identified as being involved somehow. The officers knew they had been the subject of talk and were either covering for JtR, informing for JtR or were JtR. That this is why JtR 'stopped' after MJK. They may not have even figured out at the time it was JtR. Just aided him.

That the division between city PCs and metro PCs may have been the reason why they never went public with it. Basically, an officer or two had let the side down badly and they didn't want to reveal it. Or these officers suspected they were being looked at and JtR realized they were onto him and stopped.

Either way, I think after the murder of Kelly internally they figured out that JtR had inside knowledge somehow. That the movements of officers didn't add up and that by bringing more officers in, they made it easier, not harder for JtR to murder starting with Stride, Eddowes and finishing with Mary. I think this is also why they reduced police numbers shortly after the murder of Mary. That he had used their tactics to catch him against them.

I also think it highly likely that people had covered for JtR without knowing he was JtR.

[Batman]

She wasn't known as Kate Kelly at all though
That's from a single newspaper report ,became part of ripperlore for convenience
She was always known as Kate Conway prior to going to Kent
For some reason she didn't want to use the name Conway once the murders began ..... can you think what that reason might be ?

Okay, but do you think that not a single officer or investigator concerning themselves with these details didn't meet and question the very Mary Kelly who would become the very next victim of the same person that killed Eddowes?