All Roads Lead to Dorset St.,

[DJA]

Yes.
Robinson,Byfield and Hutt.

https://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html

[Batman]

Sorry if this is a silly question.

If, when arrested, Eddowes had given her name as "Nothing" and then "Mary Ann Kelly", how do we know the woman in question was actually Eddowes?

Did one of the arresting policemen recognise her body?

Yes, they all identified her as the woman they had taken to the drunk tank that same day. Apron and all.

[Joshua Rogan]

Sorry if this is a silly question.

If, when arrested, Eddowes had given her name as "Nothing" and then "Mary Ann Kelly", how do we know the woman in question was actually Eddowes?

Did one of the arresting policemen recognise her body?

As others have said, the policemen recognised the body, but it was John Kelly who put a name to her;

Daily News 4 Oct
"The most important fact brought out yesterday in connection with the Whitechapel murders was the identification of the Mitre-square victim. A man named Kelly, on seeing in the papers an announcement that the letters "T.C." were tattooed upon the woman's left arm, went to the mortuary in Golden-lane, and identified the body as that of a woman commonly called Catherine or Kate Conway, with whom he had lived in Flower and Dean-street, a street in which the Berner-street victim also lived. Kelly's statement has been corroborated by the deceased's sister, and the deputy of a lodging house."

[MrBarnett]

As others have said, the policemen recognised the body, but it was John Kelly who put a name to her;

Daily News 4 Oct
"The most important fact brought out yesterday in connection with the Whitechapel murders was the identification of the Mitre-square victim. A man named Kelly, on seeing in the papers an announcement that the letters "T.C." were tattooed upon the woman's left arm, went to the mortuary in Golden-lane, and identified the body as that of a woman commonly called Catherine or Kate Conway, with whom he had lived in Flower and Dean-street, a street in which the Berner-street victim also lived. Kelly's statement has been corroborated by the deceased's sister, and the deputy of a lodging house."

Interesting that it's 'commonly called' rather than simply 'called' or 'named'.

[packers stem]

But there is something to back it up: the fact that unmarried couples of the period frequently 'passed themselves off' as married and used the same surname - not to mention the fact that Kate appears to have actually used the name Kelly on at least two occasions.

No doubt she clung to the fiction that she had married the father of her children among those who didn't know otherwise but knew the reality of her relationship with Kelly, but beyond that? Do you really think that around the hopfield camp fire she would have gone out of her way to insist she wasn't married to the man she was sleeping with?

Can't agree with that at all
It's supposition based upon what you feel others would do in her situation whereas we already have Wilkinson's sworn testimony to the contrary
She's only known to have used the name on her return from Maidstone
That's all the evidence there is
The press report just produced about her ID says the same ..... Conway

[Batman]

How long before Eddowes was identified?

Mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots.

Investigators had no way of knowing for sure that neither of these women existed or that they were both Eddowes at the time.

We have only John Kelly to tell us that.

John Kelly who only realized the murdered women could be his wife when he read about the Mustard tin tickets in the newspapers.

Did you know the same morning as the murder John Kelly claimed to have seen the spot where his own partner had been murdered?

At Mitre Square the entrances were cordoned off, but ‘the sensation-seeking crowds seemed to gather some satisfaction from mere proximity to the spot where the curtain had last been raised on the terrible series of tragedies’. Among those who gathered outside Mitre Square was John Kelly, with whom Catherine Eddowes had lived. He thought Eddowes had stayed overnight with her daughter and wasn’t initially concerned by her absence. As he later explained to a journalist, … on Sunday morning I wandered round in the crowds that had been gathered by the talk about the two fresh murders. I stood and looked at the very spot where my poor old gal had laid with her body all cut to pieces and I never knew it. I never thought of her in connection with it, for I thought she was safe at her daughter’s.

Begg, *Paul. Jack the Ripper: The Facts.

He becomes suspicious of her absence on Monday. Then he reads about the pawn ticket names in The Star, 3 October, 1888. Wednesday.

So for several days, they had these tickets, and had not yet formally identified her as Eddowes, although roads are leading them to Dorset St., looking for a Jane Kelly.

The press reported that investigators were unable to find a Jane Kelly on Dorset St.

... are we really to believe they didn't even get a hint that there was a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset St.?

That none of the unfortunates from 'the shed' knew the name?

Apparently, this is not a common name.

All of this smacks of hints that they all knew each other and when a John would ask for their name, they would give a friends name and later tell it as a joke or something to their friends. "Oh Mary, I gave him your name, hahaha", sort of thing. Seems they were using multiple names and this was how they avoided immediate identification by the law, witnesses, etc.

[MrBarnett]

Can't agree with that at all
It's supposition based upon what you feel others would do in her situation whereas we already have Wilkinson's sworn testimony to the contrary
She's only known to have used the name on her return from Maidstone
That's all the evidence there is
The press report just produced about her ID says the same ..... Conway

But you are saying that she didn't use the name prior to that particular trip to Kent. I'm saying the likelihood is that she did. Your certainty is a far wilder supposition than my probability.

Wilkinson didn't say she never used or was ever known by the name Kelly, did he? And if he did, he was wrong, because although we know very little about Eddowes, we do know that she used that name on at least a couple of occasions.

[Sam Flynn]

The press reported that investigators were unable to find a Jane Kelly on Dorset St.

... are we really to believe they didn't even get a hint that there was a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset St.?

If true, they didn't find anyone called "Jane Kelly", period. What reason had they to look for a "Mary Jane Kelly"? Come to think of it, did they fare any better in finding a "Mary Ann Kelly" in Fashion Street?

That none of the unfortunates from 'the shed' knew the name?

If it was a fake name, which it almost certainly was, then why should they? Assuming the darned "shed" referred to in that one melodramatic newspaper article really existed.

[MrBarnett]

Mustard tin containing two pawn tickets, One in the name of Emily Birrell, 52 White's Row, dated August 31, 9d for a man's flannel shirt. The other is in the name of Jane Kelly of 6 Dorset Street and dated September 28, 2S for a pair of men's boots.

Investigators had no way of knowing for sure that neither of these women existed or that they were both Eddowes at the time.

We have only John Kelly to tell us that.

John Kelly who only realized the murdered women could be his wife when he read about the Mustard tin tickets in the newspapers.

Did you know the same morning as the murder John Kelly claimed to have seen the spot where his own partner had been murdered?

At Mitre Square the entrances were cordoned off, but ‘the sensation-seeking crowds seemed to gather some satisfaction from mere proximity to the spot where the curtain had last been raised on the terrible series of tragedies’. Among those who gathered outside Mitre Square was John Kelly, with whom Catherine Eddowes had lived. He thought Eddowes had stayed overnight with her daughter and wasn’t initially concerned by her absence. As he later explained to a journalist, … on Sunday morning I wandered round in the crowds that had been gathered by the talk about the two fresh murders. I stood and looked at the very spot where my poor old gal had laid with her body all cut to pieces and I never knew it. I never thought of her in connection with it, for I thought she was safe at her daughter’s.

Begg, *Paul. Jack the Ripper: The Facts.

He becomes suspicious of her absence on Monday. Then he reads about the pawn ticket names in The Star, 3 October, 1888. Wednesday.

So for several days, they had these tickets, and had not yet formally identified her as Eddowes, although roads are leading them to Dorset St., looking for a Jane Kelly.

The press reported that investigators were unable to find a Jane Kelly on Dorset St.

... are we really to believe they didn't even get a hint that there was a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset St.?

That none of the unfortunates from 'the shed' knew the name?

Apparently, this is not a common name.

All of this smacks of hints that they all knew each other and when a John would ask for their name, they would give a friends name and later tell it as a joke or something to their friends. "Oh Mary, I gave him your name, hahaha", sort of thing. Seems they were using multiple names and this was how they avoided immediate identification by the law, witnesses, etc.

I wonder if they ever gave their full (even fake) names to their customers. It's more likely they have just a forename with perhaps a descriptive add-on such as fair Emma.

In 1893 there was a census taken of the catholic population of the Westminster Diocese (which included the East End). It was commented that many of the prostitutes in the Ratcliff Highway area refused to give their full names, preferring to be known by their street names such as Liverpool Kate, Dynamite Kate and (two years after the death of Frances Coles) Carotty Nell.

[packers stem]

But you are saying that she didn't use the name prior to that particular trip to Kent. I'm saying the likelihood is that she did. Your certainty is a far wilder supposition than my probability.

Wilkinson didn't say she never used or was ever known by the name Kelly, did he? And if he did, he was wrong, because although we know very little about Eddowes, we do know that she used that name on at least a couple of occasions.

And the couple of occasions you refer to were when ?
Wilkinson's words are clear

[packers stem]

He becomes suspicious of her absence on Monday. Then he reads about the pawn ticket names in The Star, 3 October, 1888. Wednesday.

So for several days, they had these tickets, and had not yet formally identified her as Eddowes, although roads are leading them to Dorset St., looking for a Jane Kelly.

The press reported that investigators were unable to find a Jane Kelly on Dorset St.

... are we really to believe they didn't even get a hint that there was a Mary Jane Kelly living in Dorset St.?

That none of the unfortunates from 'the shed' knew the name?

Apparently, this is not a common name.
.

Slap on the wrist Batman

How could they possibly have had the wherewithal to find someone with a similar name to that found on the ticket or that given by eddowes on her release
Asking people like McCarthy if they knew any women by the name of Mary Ann Kelly seems such a ridiculous idea
I can't believe you even mentioned such a suggestion

Of course had McCarthy been asked he would have said he'd never heard of her ... the middle name makes the name completely different and impossible to coincide of course 😀

[packers stem]

Brief ripperology lesson

If the police were looking for a
Cyril Gerald Moneypenny of 26 Dorset street
He's not to be found but
Cyril Harold Moneypenny was at 6 Dorset street his existence could be ignored as he's clearly not the same person 😊
People wonder why JTR is still a mystery ....

[Sam Flynn]

Brief ripperology lesson

If the police were looking for a
Cyril Gerald Moneypenny of 26 Dorset street
He's not to be found but
Cyril Harold Moneypenny was at 6 Dorset street his existence could be ignored as he's clearly not the same person ��
People wonder why JTR is still a mystery ....

For a better analogy, try "David Smith" and "John David Smith". Also, we should bear in mind that Dorset Street had a very large, often transitory, population, and people don't usually share their middle names with all and sundry. It's not so easy to track people down under such circumstances.

[packers stem]

For a better analogy, try "David Smith" and "John David Smith". Also, we should bear in mind that Dorset Street had a very large, often transitory, population, and people don't usually share their middle names with all and sundry. It's not so easy to track people down under such circumstances.

Hence why they should have been making enquiries in Dorset Street about a Mary Kelly as the name given by Eddowes on release or a Jane Kelly on the pawn ticket which, as Batman quite rightly pointed out , other than Dorset Street , was ALL they had to go on to identify the body for a number of days

Not rocket science

[Batman]

Hence why they should have been making enquiries in Dorset Street about a Mary Kelly as the name given by Eddowes on release or a Jane Kelly on the pawn ticket which, as Batman quite rightly pointed out , other than Dorset Street , was ALL they had to go on to identify the body for a number of days

Not rocket science

Exactly. Packer's stem was being sarcastic in the last reply. It was literally the hard evidence they had in their hands of names and addresses to go on plus the accounts of the officers that took her into the drunk tank and managed her. If she just gave her surname as Kelly, there was only one on Dorset St., to our knowledge. Yet she also has managed to provide them with the names Mary and Jane and the surname Kelly in the process.

As if someone didn't suggest that it could have been Mary Jane Kelly of Miller's court, when asking around. Plus the other address were wrong so there was no reason to accept a '6' Dorset St., and if it was the shed, then how could they have missed interviewing its occupants (they found six and two identified Eddowes) about a Mary Kelly or Jane Kelly of Dorset St.?

You have to be Inspector Clouseau NOT to learn that Mary Jane Kelly lived in Miller's court on Dorset St., at the time of the Eddowes investigation. A three day process into it and all.