Sergeant Stephen White

[Johnr]

Sergeant Stephen White:Old Bailey On-Line Transcripts

Anyone wishing to read the Old Bailey Court Records of the career of Detective Sergeant Stephen White in "L" Division, and "H" Division might care to look at this link:

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/search.jsp?foo=bar&form=searchHomePage&_divs_fulltext=Detective+Sergeant&_persNames_surname=WHITE&_persNames_given=Stephen&start=0

Hope I have not broken the thread of discussion above. Which I have not yet read. JOHN RUFFELS.

[Jonathan H]

John, you maybe absolutely correct.

That maybe what happened.

It is just that the police already had, in my opinion, a major Gentile suspect in their sights and that was Dr Tumblety.

He fled, and senior police seem to have taken the view that perhaps he was not the Fiend [or hoped he wasn't?] because primary sources show that there was no standing down in the immediate aftermath of the Kelly murder.

The very public and massive manhunt for Ripepr suspect Tom Sadler, in 1891, strongly suggests that they were looking for anybody who might credibly fit what Lawende had seen: eg. a working-class sailor -- even though Sadler was middle-aged and burly.

That's how desperate the police were.

They even denied Sadler a proper line-up for his 'confrontation' with Lawende, the Ripper's paramount witness [who allegedly saw a figure tantalizingly comparable to Druitt]

It is so predictable that Lawende, if an honest man, was not going to be pressured. That he would not say that Sadler was 'Jack the Sailor'.

Therefore, I am of the opinion that after Sadler had to be let go, and the police were once again flayed in the tabloids -- inlcuding by George Sims later their greatest booster -- suddenly, almost miraculously, not one but TWO prime suspects literally dropped into their laps: 'son of a surgeon' Montie Druitt via a loose-lipped, family neighbor and Tory MP, and the knife-wielding, prostitute-hater Aaron Kosminski, perhaps due to an equally indiscreet member of this poor, Polish family.

Unfortunately and excruciatingly for those top cops, one of these chief suspects was long dead -- and by his own hand -- and the other permanently declared mad.

We know that from the mid-1890's, Scotland Yard's senior toffs, Anderson and Macnaghten, were doing a complete about-face in their Ripper disseminations to the public.

They HAD, sort-of, caught the Fiend after all -- all two of him, or three of him?

I think that the source claiming White saw this 'Druittish' figure is a late invention, tainted by the 'Drowned Doctor' Super-suspect paradigm which was predominant, thanks to Macnaghten and his crony, Sims, in the Edwardian Era.

Or, have I missed your point entirely? That what you actually mean is thatbif the White story is valid it means that the Ripper, after Kelly, stopped because he feared he could be identiified? But the police did not know this.

Something like that?

[Johnr]

Surviving reports: ".more 'important' or 'relevant' investigations.

We know that White was involved in the investigation of the Whitechapel murders. Had the query not arisen over Packer then there may have been no mention of him in the official files.

There were many officers involved in the Whitechapel investigation and the majority of them, probably, are not named in the surviving files. Most of the surviving files are the overall reports and more important or relevant investigations. Thus the significance of whatever White was involved in that formed a basis for the press reports, if indeed it happened in any way as described, was probably not relevant to the inquiry. Usually only the leading investigators appear in the surviving reports. Had all the paperwork survived, including all the statements, then we would have many more police officers' names.

Thanks Stewart,

Sorry for my delayed response.

Your expertise in police procedure and your vast JTR holdings, uniquely equip you to answer questions such as my last. I am grateful.

From yours and other books, it seems the police were processing a huge number of "witness reports", investigating "suspects" and responding to "concerned citizens" and -worst of all -, politicians and newspapers.

Considering the anti-police attitude of the majority of people in the killing zone, "timewasters" and "false trails" and "sheer obstructionists" must have been considerable. One only has to look at the press reports.

Given the sheer magnitude of the task, and the under-resourced nature of
reality at East End police stations, it must have been a horrendous burden for senior police to evaluate just which reports were 'relevant' let alone 'important'.The killer was never caught.

Jonathan H has expressed a belief that the reason the police did not successful run the Ripper to earth was because they were considering reports about the wrong people as 'relevant' and 'important'.

Just for one moment, let us consider what might have happened if Steve White's report ( the Dundee one) was based on substance and truth.

I have said I believe the night of the double killing by JTR was ' important '(oh dear!) because, seemingly, for the first time, the Ripper was thwarted in his first (*Stride) killing that night.

This forced him to break with his regular modus operandum, and risk searching out and killing a second victim that same night.

If, at any time in the whole campaign, the Ripper was going to make a mistake, (in my opinion) it would have to have been up to and during that second slaughter.

The apron, was left behind that night.The only piece of evidence ever uncovered.

It was at that very point, after the second killing, we have Steve White's alleged report.

(As I said earlier, we are imagining White's report is based on truth);that it is ' important' and 'relevant'.

White claims this alleged Ripper spoke with an unexpectedly cultured and musical voice. No mention of a harsh foreign accent.Was he Anglo-Saxon?
Such a detail could have been considered 'unimportant" if the police were looking for an Eastern Eurpoean Jewish emigre !


Hot potato! The Ripper was not an East Eurpoean Jewish emigre after all!

A secondary indication JTR might have been discovered that night is that he did not commit a further murder in accordance with his regular modus/rhythm after that night.

He waited an uncharacteristically long time before he struck again.

Just as you would expect if a police officer had actually spoken to him near the crime scene on that vital night.

So, Stewart, going on secondary possibilities, "The People's Journal " account might not have been so luridly inaccurate as it seems.

I'm betting the same story appeared in a London or provincial paper.

This will not make it true, but it may indicate a London provenance.
JOHN RUFFELS.

[Stewart P Evans]

Investigation

Thank you Stewart,
...
How much of the detail in that is true?
Was White connected witheach of the Ripper inveestigations?
Was he involved in a stake-out of a suspects location on the very night of one of the murders?
Despite his reported oversight in the Packer investigation around the Stride murder, press details of White's career paint him as a capable, experienced detective.
According to your very good "Jack the Ripper: The Ultimate Sourcebook ", police records seem to indicate only one surviving mention of Steve White's involvement.
Are you satisfied Stewart, that MEPOL and Home Office records are complete
to the extent no involvement of White in Ripper investigations would remain
unchronicled?
I truly appreciate your patience herein, but I stubbornly believe something has not emerged regarding White's Ripper duties.
JOHN RUFFELS.

We know that White was involved in the investigation of the Whitechapel murders. Had the query not arisen over Packer then there may have been no mention of him in the official files.

There were many officers involved in the Whitechapel investigation and the majority of them, probably, are not named in the surviving files. Most of the surviving files are the overall reports and more important or relevant investigations. Thus the significance of whatever White was involved in that formed a basis for the press reports, if indeed it happened in any way as described, was probably not relevant to the inquiry. Usually only the leading investigators appear in the surviving reports. Had all the paperwork survived, including all the statements, then we would have many more police officers' names.

[Stewart P Evans]

Stabbing

It seems to me that White may indeed have been near the site of one of the murders close to the time it was committed, so there could be a grain of truth underlying this story - though the East London Observer report makes it clear that the claim that he saw the murderer is an embellishment, and the ELO version may itself have been embellished (though, as I read it, it doesn't imply that White actually discovered the body).
I also wonder whether Harry Cox's statement that one of the murders "had taken place at the very moment when one of our smartest colleagues was passing the top of the dimly lit street" could be a reference to the same incident.

It also cites a stabbing which may mean that it was not a Ripper killing.

[Chris]

It seems to me that White may indeed have been near the site of one of the murders close to the time it was committed, so there could be a grain of truth underlying this story - though the East London Observer report makes it clear that the claim that he saw the murderer is an embellishment, and the ELO version may itself have been embellished (though, as I read it, it doesn't imply that White actually discovered the body).

I also wonder whether Harry Cox's statement that one of the murders "had taken place at the very moment when one of our smartest colleagues was passing the top of the dimly lit street" could be a reference to the same incident.

[Johnr]

Thank you Stewart,

For posting both of those "obit" articles about Detective Steve White again.
I agree we have been over thisd ground before,and thatthe "Dundee "People's Journal" areticle is very lurid and claiming to have special knowledge, which other papers did not.
"Cheque-book journalism" it may well be.

I have no quarrel with that.

Now let us turn to the second article.

How much of the detail in that is true?

Was White connected witheach of the Ripper inveestigations?

Was he involved in a stake-out of a suspects location on the very night of one of the murders?

Despite his reported oversight in the Packer investigation around the Stride murder, press details of White's career paint him as a capable, experienced detective.

According to your very good "Jack the Ripper: The Ultimate Sourcebook ", police records seem to indicate only one surviving mention of Steve White's involvement.

Are you satisfied Stewart, that MEPOL and Home Office records are complete
to the extent no involvement of White in Ripper investigations would remain
unchronicled?

I truly appreciate your patience herein, but I stubbornly believe something has not emerged regarding White's Ripper duties.

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Stewart P Evans]

Sober

A more sober obituary for White appeared in the East London Observer of the same date, September 27, 1919, as follows -



In this version the story upon which the People's Journal version is undoubtedly based, appears in a more prosaic form - and reveals that he saw no suspect whatsoever. But that doesn't make for a good story. I have no doubt that this is simply another case of 'chequebook' journalism and the opportunity for someone to write another sensational Ripper story.

[Stewart P Evans]

No Evidence

A perusal of the above article in The People's Journal, published as a sort of obituary, offers no evidence of actually coming from White himself. The pseudonymous author calls himself 'A Scotland Yard Man' and probably was not a policeman at all, but was one of the popular 'true crime' writers of the day. There is nothing to prove that the quoted 'report' by White actually existed.

[Stewart P Evans]

Regurgitate

It would seem that the boards, maybe Ripperworld in general, gets so boring at times that it is seen fit to regurgitate old fantasies and legends. The Stephen White story is always good for a debate so, as we see here, it is often exhumed and placed in all its smelly glory on the boards. Here is The People's Journal, Saturday, September 27, 1919 tale -

[tnb]

We have other historical precedents for Macnaghtens co-mingling of story details, perhaps this tale isnt as straightforward, or as baseless, as its sometimes made out to be. But maybe its not White who is the real character in the story.

My point exactly 'perry'; which may also explain the discrepancies with the location...

[Johnr]

Oops! Like most things on Casebook, there is always ' deja vu'.

Apparently if you go to "General Discussion" and click on the thread:

"Description in the Pall Mall Gazette", you will see some discussion of Cumberland's dream. Debra A. and Chris Scott seem to have covered some of this, and even posted an illustration of Cumberland's dream image of JTR.

I'll try to add the link here:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=2541&page=4

Apparently, also added there, the story appeared in a Glasgow publication,and Cumberland started a London(?) publication " The Mirror" which included his JTR image.

I reckon his "dream" image looks like the Duke of Clarence and M.J.Druitt.
They reckon "Snidely Whiplash"!! JOHN RUFFELS.

[Johnr]

Possible early "glow-worm eyes inspiration.

Putting my money where my mouth is, I have begun searching for early press or police reports which could have influenced the writer of the Steve White article in the Dundee "People's Journal".

One involves Stuart Cumberland, a " Thought Reader ".This man, at the relevant time, toured the country giving shows where he stood before a subject and supposedly, read their minds.

So impressive were his "powers" people wrote to him suggesting he direct his powers to solving the then current "Jack the Ripper" murders.
In an article repeated in " The Mercury" Hobart ", Tasmania, of Wed. 30 October, 1889 (page 25), Cumberland earnestly disclaimed any possibility he could solve the case. He could only read the man's mind if he was brought face to face with him.

However, he felt his responsibility to use his powers so keenly, he concentrated his mind mightily, particularly on one instance, in Dundee, around the time of the October murder, 1888.

A reporter attended him in Dundee and he described the man he had seen in a dream, whom he claimed was JTR.This Dundee reporter took notes.

Presumeably, these would have been published.

Cumberland subsequently moved on, and lo, had another dream, in which he saw the Ripper more clearly,and not only that, the Ripper made the form of the figure eight in his vision.

This he took to mean the Ripper was going to commit an 8th murder!

He wrote to his good friend Dr Rubie, editor of the London " Evening News " describing the Ripper's appearance and predicting an eighth murder.

Extraordinarily, Dr Rubie arranged to lunch with Cumberland 'at C's club on "Lord Mayor's Day".

As we all know another murder occurred on Lord Mayor's day in 1888.

Cumberland published a book "A Fatal Affinity". It was read by William Gladstone, who was impressed.

Cumberland seemed to think there were eight or nine murders up to 1889.

But most interesting within his description of the man he saw in his two dreams: his eyes:

" The eyes were dark and prominent, showing plenty of white".
And:" there was a dark intensity about the dark, full, eyes, the eyes of a mesmerist ".

JOHN RUFFELS.

We have other historical precedents for Macnaghtens co-mingling of story details, perhaps this tale isnt as straightforward, or as baseless, as its sometimes made out to be. But maybe its not White who is the real character in the story.

Best regards

[Ben]

The Stephen White suspect sighting never happened, John.

If it did, we'd see White's name and description appended to a report on the witnesses collated by Donald Swanson, or else certain members of the police seniority were withholding details from eachother.

All the best,
Ben