Sergeant Stephen White

[Stephen Thomas]

What a stitch up. Ex-policeman has a few jars and gets home without bothering anybody then gets beaten up on his own doorstep by a serving policeman who he's had previous problems with and who just happens to be standing there.

[Rob Clack]

Thanks Debs, it's an interesting piece. It does sound as if Stephen White may have been hard done by. I'll see if I can track down what the problem was.

Rob

[Debra A]

Well done on tracking the story down, Rob!
I knew you would find it eventually.

It's quite complicated isn't it? Sounds to have been a bit of a history between White and Inspector Boustred. I wonder what the story there was?

[Rob Clack]

I got this news report yesterday.

The East London Observer, Saturday 11 May 1901











Rob

[Tom_Wescott]

If Paul Begg and Martin Fido and Stewart P Evans wanted to do so, that would be even better.

I don't think Martin Fido would want to find himself standing between those two gentlemen. LOL.

tnb,

Stephen White did not see anyone who might have been the murderer. He was in fact a police sergeant with H Division and is best known for his involvement in the Matthew Packer affair. According to A-Z he was promoted to Inspector in 1894, however I have clippings referring to an Inspector White in 1891.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[tnb]

Hello all,

Can anyone point me towards the book or article in which Stewart P Evans addresses Stephen White's alleged sighting in Mitre Sq? I have not come across it, but the man himself seems pretty confident that he debunks the entire event in it; I am myself quite interested in the event, and indeed White's role in the whole investigation, and would very much like to have a proper look at 'the case for the opposition'.

Thanks.

[Johnr]

Opps! A Bit of " Foot In Mouth " there..

Sorry all you prospective examiners of James Carnac and Steve White's Dundee writings about JTR.

I did not mean to insult people by saying the three honchos were prefereable.
("Even better").

I note in "The Ultimate Jack the Ripper Sourcebook" ( by Stewart P. Evans and Keith Skinner) at page 533, on the occasion of the Pinchin Street Torso murder, on the 10th September, 1889, Inspector Reid assigned a detective sergeant to search the Railway arches for clues. That Sergeant was " P.S. White".

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Johnr]

Analysing two well-written "fictional"(?) JTR pieces.

Recently, the BBC told of the discovery of a JTR document discovered amongst the papers of a writer of children's tales, which purported to be the Memoir of a " James Carnac" telling of his activities as the Real Jack.
See the James Carnac thread for the link.

Paul Begg has opined that whilst the writings are obviously fiction ( and no-one has alleged otherwise), they are well written and appear well-researched.

I am wondering if any journalists or wordsmiths among us might get the best copy of the Carnac Memoir and the Steve White 'THE PEOPLE's JOURNAL' obituary, and analyse them to see just where the writers might have obtained their facts.
This would go some way to assisting us in our assessment of their worth or significance.

If Paul Begg and Martin Fido and Stewart P Evans wanted to do so, that would be even better. JOHN RUFFELS.

[tnb]

'perry'

Bear in mind the acknowledged antagonism between certain Jewish groups in the East End at the time, for instance related to the International...club; I can't find a reference for that right now but it was mentioned by Paul Begg and Chris Scott in the 'progress' Rippercast a while back, and I'm (more or less) willing to take them on trust. To refresh any memories, it was regarding a break between the socialist and non-socialist Jews, and also the fact that the former were holding meetings on a Sunday (which actually seems a bit of an odd objection, seeing as the Jewish Sabbath is Saturday).

I'm not suggesting that the 'Lipski' incident necessarily suggests a link to the Club, but I think this shows that there were factions within the Jewish community - if there was dissent about the Club then the chances are that there were many other issues that divided the community. Unfortunately many of which we may never know at this remove.

The idea that all Jews were united in their opinions, behaviours etc is reflected in much of the press from the time, but it is actually more than anything reflective of a general bias. It's a bit like suggesting all Englishmen or Welshmen or Americans will agree at all times. People will naturally gravitate towards their own when in a 'strange' country, but that doesn't mean that within this (from the outside) close group there won't necessarily be as many factions as in the average street.

Well done Debs for the finding of the reference to Lipski as a 'Jew on Jew' insult as well, a bit like 'Uncle Tom' perhaps? (in use, not inference). This certainly puts a new perspective on BSM, and blows away one of the many assumptions about the case.

Long - LONG LONG LONG!!! - shot, but I wonder if anyone has looked into whether the misspelling may actually have been an insult in itself? ie. referring to a group who were ' not real "Jews" ' ????

That is an interesting find Deb, and I wonder whether in those cases a sub-class connotation might be suggested....as in affiliated and orthodox working Jews speaking to immigrant unemployed reformers?

I realize your press counters what I suggested a few posts back, but I dont believe that BSM can be categorized as being Jewish from what we know... so we may still just be dealing with anti-semetism, Gentile to Jew. Not totally unrelated may be some writing that suggests the same as well...in part due to the misspelling of the very word Jews.

All the best

[Debra A]

Thanks John,
I'll take your advice and post the relevant clippings on a Stride thread.

[Johnr]

Thanks Debs, Michael and Tom,

I am sure others have discussed the linking of the Graffiti with the "Lipski" slur. On the old boards probably.

But I am pleased my remarks have teased out some cogent and interesting
observations.

My only worry is that I might be leading people off-topic.

I don't know what to make of references to Michael Kidney, and Tom's Berner street linkings.

But I do like Debs' point that not only Gentiles used the term "Lipski".

I think that is very relevant, and should be placed on the other threads also, which deal with Elizabeth Stride and so forth.

So much good stuff gets lost, and is so-o-o hard to locate later.

JOHN RUFFELS.

[Debra A]

So, was the epithet "Lipski" used as a Cockney slur on Jewish denizens up east in 1888?

Hi all,
I just wanted to add a little something here that may or may not be relevant.

The only instance of the word 'Lipski' being used as an insult [that admittedly came to court] I could find in contemporary press reports, was the word being used by a man with the very Jewish sounding name of Myer Jacoby, and described as 'a foreigner' against a man named Philip Solomons, another Jewish sounding name and another 'foreigner'.
Jacoby assaulted Solomons, and both he and his wife used the word Lipski as an insult more than once when Solomons came up to Jacoby's workshop and began calling Jacoby's daughter 'bad names' and slapping her around the face.
Solomons was a married man who had been abusing Jacoby's daughter in all ways.

Maybe also a term used for abusers of women?
Debs

John,

So, was the epithet "Lipski" used as a Cockney slur on Jewish denizens up east in 1888?

On November 1,1888, Inspector Abberline wrote in a memorandum:
I beg to report that since a jew named Lipski was hanged for the murder of a jewess in 1887 the name has very frequently been used by persons as mere ejaculation by way of endeavouring to insult the jew to whom it has been addressed, and as Schwartz has a strong jewish appearance I am of the opinion it was addressed to him as he stopped to look at the man he saw ill-using the deceased woman.

Hope this helps.

Don.

Which suggests that if Schwartz is a witness to be believed, despite the lack of any hard evidence of him attending the Stride Inquest, then Broadshouldered Man is most probably a Gentile. I know the strains between Orthodox and Reformed that were going on.....but I dont believe the first insult to come to the mind of a Jew to say to another Jew would be an anti-semetic slur.

That would mean that Israel was for sure not the witness used to identify the incarcerated Jew as alleged...we assume it was either Lawende or perhaps Schwartz. Because BSM was not likely Jewish. And it is assumed Jack the Ripper was.

And so enters Michael Kidney perhaps...if this occurred as stated by the witness in his interview.

Best regards

[Johnr]

Much obliged Don,

A nice crisp answer.

Quoting one Dorset man (about another Dorset man?) not far from Dorset Street.

JOHN RUFFELS.