Sergeant Stephen White

[Natalie Severn]

How dare you!

Natalie, we've gone over this umpteen times and still you pass this off as fact - but it's nothing of the sort. On the contrary, the combined testimony of those who actually had most dealings with Klosowski (i.e. his landlady and his in-laws) doesn't place him anywhere near George Yard until 1889/90. Against that, all you have is the somewhat colourful testimony of Wolf Levisohn who, as a travelling salesman, only got to see Klosowski periodically.

Sorry for that tangent into Klosowski-land, but if people insist on drip-feeding what they'd like to be facts into other discussions, I think it only fair that the balance should be redressed in favour of the actual evidence.

PLEASE Sam GET THE DETAIL RIGHT----and GET THE BOOK WITH TRANSCRIPTIONS FROM THE TRIAL.The Trial of George Chapman by HL ADAMS 1929

POLICE COURT PROCEEDINGS:
Wed 7th January

Wolff Levisohn 135 Rosslyn Road -he was traveller in hairdresser materials page 201,The Trial of George Chapman by HL Adams:
"HE FIRST MET THE ACCUSED IN A SHOP UNDER WHITE HART PUBLIC HOUSE 89 HIgh Street Whitechapel

IN 1888

[ie the same White Hart pub at corner of GEORGE YARD where Martha Tabram was murdered in 1888]


CHAPMAN TRIAL TRANSCRIPTION of 1903
Evidence for the prosecution PAGE 62 and 63

Wolf Levisohn examined----I live at 135 Rosslyn Road.......I have known the accused since 1888------we met from time to time up to 1890

[Natalie Severn]

No, not a chance.

Don"y quite understand your emphatic rejection of Ben"s point here Scott?

How about this for a "confusion" or muddle of "identifications:


October 2nd 1888

"CITY" police announce that the man wanted for the

MITRE SQUARE MURDER


is described as follows:

----Age---- 28
---build ---slight

----height ---5 feet 8 ins

----complexion----dark

----no whiskers

black diagonal coat

hard felt hat

collar and tie


carried a newspaper parcel



respectable appearance


This is a actually a very close match to the description supplied by PC SMITH on the same night who saw a "respectable looking " man with a black diagonal coat ,dark deerstalker hat and NEWSPAPER PARCEL in IN BERNER STREET talking with the earlier murder victim that night, Elizabeth Stride at 12.35 a full hour before the MItre Square killing.

Lawende"s man had a rough sailor appearance,was wearing a jacket and a red neckerchief and had a FAIR COMPLEXION and a moustache.
Best Norma

[Natalie Severn]

White"s man----a dead ringer for Thomas Cutbush?

Something that has always intrigued me about this alleged report by Sergeant White is the description he gives of the young man he says he saw because the chap he describes is a dead ringer for the description we have from the Sun Reporter of 1894 when he visited Broadmoor and saw him there as well as his description in the Cutbush Asylum Transcriptions:

Cutbush asylum transcription: 23 April 1891

Age 26

Height ----5 feet 9 and a half inches


---weight-- 9 stone 6 pounds

----hair------ black

--whiskers - black


--eyes- dark blue VERY SHARP


-- build -slight


---features --slim


The Sun reporter gives the same description adding his face was very narrow and that he had a slight stoop/"as if his chest troubled him" Feb 1894.


Compare this then with Sergeant White"s "alleged" report:


-He was about 5 feet 10 inches in height

-his face was long and thin

-his hair was jet black

-the most striking thing about him was the extraordinary brilliance of his eyes

The man was slightly bent at the shoulders,though obviously quite young-about 33 at the most.......

Best
Norma

[Sam Flynn]

How many times must I point this out?

Much more important to my mind is that the murders began in 1888,the year when at some point Chapman worked in George Yard

Natalie, we've gone over this umpteen times and still you pass this off as fact - but it's nothing of the sort. On the contrary, the combined testimony of those who actually had most dealings with Klosowski (i.e. his landlady and his in-laws) doesn't place him anywhere near George Yard until 1889/90. Against that, all you have is the somewhat colourful testimony of Wolf Levisohn who, as a travelling salesman, only got to see Klosowski periodically.

Sorry for that tangent into Klosowski-land, but if people insist on drip-feeding what they'd like to be facts into other discussions, I think it only fair that the balance should be redressed in favour of the actual evidence.

[Scott Nelson]

As for Swanson's witness report, his inclusion of both the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions tells us that he had collated both City and Met eyewitness evidence.

No, not a chance.

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,



Yes, this would seem the most plausible explanation - that Macnaghten accidentally amalgamated the PC Smith and Lawende sightings. As for Swanson's witness report, his inclusion of both the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions tells us that he had collated both City and Met eyewitness evidence.

Best regards,
Ben

Unfortunately however,this doesnt tell us whether Macnaghten himself set any store by either sighting........he just remarks that one person----not two, "may have seen the ripper".Pity he was vague on this .Possibly when he added "[beat]" to " PC" he was trying to be a bit specific?Difficult to know.
N

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

I wonder if Macnaghten,reading through these as Assistant commissioner several months later, simply got mixed up with "PC Smith"s" sighting in Berner Street opposite the club

Yes, this would seem the most plausible explanation - that Macnaghten accidentally amalgamated the PC Smith and Lawende sightings. As for Swanson's witness report, his inclusion of both the Lawende and Schwartz descriptions tells us that he had collated both City and Met eyewitness evidence.

Best regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,



More problematic is the total absence of any reference to a PC suspect sighting/description in Swanson's report on the witnesses with regard to the Mitre Square murder. Since this was an internal police document, the only valid explanation for such an absence is that there was never any suspect description to have originated from a PC at or near Mitre Square.

Best regards,
Ben

Hi Ben,
Since the Mitre Square murder took place in the City of London and the Berner Street murder,ten minutes away [by foot] was in Whitechapel, mustn"t there have been TWO sets of police reports for Swanson to collate? I wonder if Macnaghten,reading through these as Assistant commissioner several months later, simply got mixed up with "PC Smith"s" sighting in Berner Street opposite the club, of the man he saw with Liz Stride-who he later identified?
He said the man was 5ft 7 ins tall, wearing a dark overcoat and dark trousers and a hard felt deerstalker hat.The man had a newspaper parcel in his hand,was clean shaven, appeared respectable and PC Smith guessed his age around 28?

This might explain the muddle.I know others have made a similar suggestion and since Macnaghten was not at the inquest or even in his job in 1888,maybe he simply misinterpreted Swanson"s report on this?
N

[Chris]

On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.Also Macnaghten"s inclusion of "beat PC" appears to preclude White who was a detective sergeant and not a beat PC.

Just to clarify - I wasn't trying to suggest either that there was really a City PC who saw the Ripper, or that White did so.

Just that Macnaghten's (apparently mistaken) belief that there was a City PC witness must have been the source of the statement by Sims that John quoted.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.

More problematic is the total absence of any reference to a PC suspect sighting/description in Swanson's report on the witnesses with regard to the Mitre Square murder. Since this was an internal police document, the only valid explanation for such an absence is that there was never any suspect description to have originated from a PC at or near Mitre Square.

Best regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Norma,



I suspect you're right. What surprises me, though, is that both Hargrave Adam and Arthur Neil (or rather one echoing the other) misremembrered the details of that description to such a drastic extent, despite using it as one of the cornerstones of their "case" against Klosowski.

All the best,
Ben

Yes,its as though they crammed in everything they thought would give extra credence to their "case" without ever paying much-if any- attention to detail.
N

[Natalie Severn]

Chris,
Yes,I see what you are saying here.One thing I always try to remember is that much of what was in the police files has vanished.On the other hand,if there was a "beat " PC in Mitre Square who saw the Ripper his sighting was not referred to at the inquest on Catherine Eddowes.Also Macnaghten"s inclusion of "beat PC" appears to preclude White who was a detective sergeant and not a beat PC.
It really is a tough one this because the night Catherine Eddowes was murdered there were a number of police about around Aldgate,and these may well have included police such as Det. Sergeant White-who appear to have been engaged in the ongoing "surveillance monitoring" of Irish dynamitards and anarchists in Whitechapel , Aldgate and Mitre Square.In fact no less than Inspector Abberline had actually tracked and caught two Irish bomb makers in digs in MItre Square only three years before.

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

Personally I think the "eye witness" he is referring to is George Hutchinson.

I suspect you're right. What surprises me, though, is that both Hargrave Adam and Arthur Neil (or rather one echoing the other) misremembrered the details of that description to such a drastic extent, despite using it as one of the cornerstones of their "case" against Klosowski.

All the best,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
Personally I think the "eye witness" he is referring to is George Hutchinson.Hutchinson gave a description that tallied reasonably well with this one Neil writes about .However,you are right there doesnt appear to have been a police witness in Swanson"s reports.

I dont consider the physical description of Hutchinson or any other description -including PC Smith"s in Berner Street- to hold the key to Chapman being the Ripper.Therefore I dont consider the case against Chapman to rest on a physical description.
Much more important to my mind is that the murders began in 1888,the year when at some point Chapman worked in George Yard and later having an address at 126 Cable Street.
Cheers Ben,
Norma

[Ben]

THE HEIGHT,DEEP SUNK BLACK EYES,SALLOW COMPLEXION AND BLACK MOUSTACHE

I referred to the above "eyewitness description" on another Klosowski thread, and observed the following:

The trouble with Neil is that he was clearly working from a secondary source – Hargrave Adam – to make his case for Kloswoski. He even used a confused eyewitness description, presumably Adam’s, that bore no resemblance to anything that emerged from 1888, as one of most damning indications of supposed guilt. That’s not to poo-poo Klosowski’s candidacy in general, but it’s a bit of a worry that a case can be constructed on such shaky foundations.

There is no evidence of any comtemporary eyewitness describing anyone with sunken eyes or a sallow complexion, and there was certainly no mention of any Mitre Square-based police eyewitness in Swanson's compilation of witness descriptions.

Best regards,
Ben