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Why Is William Melville Listed On Casebook?

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  • #16
    Oh What A Tangled Web..

    Thank you very much Lynn for explaining that up so clearly for me.
    Now I have an inkling of your thinkling!

    Phil,
    Thank you very much indeed for rendering Cooke's book down into a liquified and distilled form.
    You went to a lot of trouble and succeeded also, like Lynn, with great clarity.

    Boy oh boy, what a tangled skein the Jubilee plot seemed to be!
    No wonder Monro was so angry.

    Melville and Littlechild seem to emerge from the whole shemozzle in a sanctified state.

    I am starting to get the impression each book or treatise on the MPSB will prove as contradictory as each policeman's memoir's mention of JTR.

    However, Phil, I am wondering if Lynn's theory about Kate's murder being a Socialist assassination of a supposed informer. In which the evil killer tried to immitate the "V" knife-marks. I'm wondering if she might be onto something.
    After all, Cooke mentions Jenkinsons "girls" working amongst the lower working class London communities...might have included Kate?

    And didn't Detective Steve White discover a Fennian ammunition cache in London?


    JOHN RUFFELS.

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    • #17
      A brief history pt.3

      William Melville continued..

      After the failed attempt on Queen Victoria, it emerged that another plot, upon Balfour, the nephew of the Prime Minister and Secretary of State, a much hated man, had emerged involving one conspirator by the name of J.P.Walsh. Walsh had been involved in the "Invincibles" who claimed responsibility for the Pheonix Park murders of 1882.
      Walsh was, in 1888, based in Paris, where Melville had been posted.
      Through a long and well worked undercover operation, Melville, acting as a French policeman, confronted Walsh, and his co-conspirator, Roger McKenna, with the help of one Sergeant Flood.
      According to Andrew Cook, Roger McKenna was known as "Sylvester" and was described as "a carroty fellow". Walsh also said that he knew of a Mr Casey, mentioned in Pt 2, above, whom he last met in Le Havre in 1883. Both men were escorted by Flood and Melville by train to Le Havre. Monro informed the press that both were on their way home with the two alledged conspirators.
      Sir Charles Warren did not seemingly like the attention that Monro was getting over all these revelations. His Assistant Commissioner was getting lavish praise whilst his own reputation was falling fast, especially in the light of the November riots of 1887 in Trafalgar Square. Thereafter known as "Bloody Sunday" after the Pall Mall Gazette called it such.

      Home Secretary Matthews was not happy with Warren, who claimed to be answerable to no-one, with "certain powers by statute in the excercise of which he was responsible to no higher official" (13), and he hated Monro's direct communication with Home Secretary Matthews, by-passing himself. He had Monro transferred to help with Section D, blocked Monro's suggestion of MacNaghten as Assistant Commissioner to help "Dolly Williamson" who went on sick leave after the Dynamite plot, and it all led to Monro resigning.

      Robert Anderson was appointed, and visited his friend Monro in his office before the official announcement was made of his appointment. The appointment was to be kept quiet and according to Anderson, when visiting his friend, Monro, Warren then came along and accused Anderson of spying on him (Warren)...(14). Anderson didn't get along with Warren, and with Monro gone, the start of his new job in CID wasn't welcome. His first day was on the very first day of the start of the Jack the Ripper murders.

      Warren introduced many former Army men into the equation, giving them instructions to issue orders to the Metroploitan Police. This was very unwelcome. Any uniformed police Constable seen with a glass of beer in hand on duty was fined £50, and the height of recruitment to CID was raised to 5ft 9ins.This and many other things, meant that moral suffered in the London Metropolitan Police. Even the Queen feared that the Detective Department was not as efficient as it might be...all this at the time of unease and fear building up because of the murders in Whitechapel.. Warren eventually resigned on the 8th November 1888.

      Melville, still in France, still answered to Littlechild, and worked autonomously. Only anecdotal accounts link Melville with the pursuit of Jack the Ripper, and Andrew Cook in his book on Melville suggests it was he, along with Inspector Andrews, who were involved in the hunt for Francis Tumblety. Melville from Le Havre, where it is suggested that Tumblety, under the name of Townsend, escaped back to the USA from. However, there is nothing certain to corroberate this as any file or papers connected to Tumblety have disappeared. However I leave that part to the experts on Tumblety, who know far more than I do about it!

      Melville returned with his wife and children to England in December 1888.

      (to be continued at a later date)

      best wishes

      Phil



      Bibliography

      (13) George Dilnot, The Story of Scotland Yard, Geoffrey Bles, 1930.
      (14) Quoted by George Dilnot, from Sir Robert Anderson's The Lighter side of my Official Life, 1910
      Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-03-2010, 03:22 PM. Reason: spelling
      Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


      Justice for the 96 = achieved
      Accountability? ....

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      • #18
        When reading..

        Hello John,

        Thank you for your kind comments.
        A couple of things that I noticed were the use of the descriptions...

        "Astrakan-collar" for Muller, or Millen, and
        "carroty" for McKenna.

        Hmmm.. who was it that said that "All roads lead to Dorset Street"?

        Stephen Knight...of course...

        Lynn may very well be on to something. If I know Lynn, he probably is.. (not that it puts pressure on the man, understand..hahahaha)

        What all this does confirm is the importance of the CID ledgers that are currently being sought after by Trevor Marriot. If, and I say if, he gets to them, then we may well be able to peer through the mist a little more clearly.

        best wishes

        Phil
        Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-03-2010, 03:17 PM.
        Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


        Justice for the 96 = achieved
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        • #19
          Originally posted by jmenges View Post
          I for one do not put too much (if any) stock in Cook's assertion that Melville may have detained, or attempted to detain, Tumblety in Le Havre, and I seriously question the claim in his book that Melville's son revealed Wm. Melville's involvement in the hunt for JtR on New Zealand radio.

          Cook's book is to be somewhat recommended for the other stuff on Melville, but I'd treat his Melville/Ripper section with great caution.

          JM
          Hello JM,

          Having had a deeper look at the book, and digested it a little more, I am in agreement with you about the Melville involvement and Tumblety. Caution should be excercised, but as said on a previous posting, I leave all that to the Tumblety experts, who are far more versed in such matters.
          Thank you for the well-tuned words of advice.

          best wishes

          Phil
          Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


          Justice for the 96 = achieved
          Accountability? ....

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          • #20
            Hi All,

            As it's almost July 4th, here's a special two-for-the-price-of-one Dorset Street suspect offer–

            "Age 50 to 55, 5' 8", red face, blotchy as from excessive drinking—large nose—hair (wavy) brown, turning grey, moustache white, no whiskers. Very slight build, dressed—dark clothes, dark overcoat with astrakhan collar and cuffs—hard felt hat. Wears sword scarf pin—has Irish harp and shamrock on locket and watch chain."

            General Frank Millen.

            Regards,

            Simon
            Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

            Comment


            • #21
              Hi All,

              And if anyone's up for a spot of Independence Day conspiracy-mongering-

              Millen died of a heart attack in New York, April 1889. Six months after he died Thomas Clarke Luby, co-founder of the Irish Revolutionary Brotherhood, wrote to John O'Leary, editor of The Irish People, saying that Millen's body had been secretly disinterred and reburied by the freemasons.

              Regards,

              Simon
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • #22
                Butterworth

                Hello John. Thanks for the nice words. You are much too kind.

                Regarding your question about Kate Eddowes, I think it is very likely. Butterworth, in his book, mentions that both Kate and John were SB informants (having had a glimpse of the SB ledgers). Much food for thought.

                Phil, thanks for all the info on Millen. It is much appreciated, young man. Of course, it might take some time for an old man like me to digest.

                Cheers, lads.
                LC

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                • #23
                  Hello Lynn,

                  That's ok...it took me 10 days and two readings! I didn't have to change the lenses on my glasses either!

                  best wishes

                  Phil
                  Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                  Justice for the 96 = achieved
                  Accountability? ....

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                  • #24
                    Hello Lynn, Simon, John, all,

                    The question I have, that may be of some importance, is...


                    What happened to Roger McKenna? Known as "Sylvester", the carroty man.

                    As for Joseph Moroney, the man known as Joseph "Melville", he was arrested for murder, along with a man called McDonald,
                    in Chicago, June 11th, 1889.



                    best wishes

                    Phil
                    Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-06-2010, 08:51 AM.
                    Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                    Justice for the 96 = achieved
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                    • #25
                      Moroney

                      Hello all,

                      Here is the link to the arrest of John J Moroney. New York Times, 12th June 1889.

                      http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...609C94689FD7CF

                      He travelled back to New York on the 17th September 1888, with a Miss Kennedy, who was arrested for smuggling.

                      best wishes

                      Phil
                      Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                      Justice for the 96 = achieved
                      Accountability? ....

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                      • #26
                        McKenna

                        Hello Phil. I have been searching for McKenna; but, so far, to no avail. Will continue.

                        Cheers.
                        LC

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                        • #27
                          McKenna

                          Hello Lynn,

                          According to Clutterbuck, there are entries referring to McKenna the the Chief Constable's register, but name him as Joseph McKenna, not Roger.

                          These are references probably from Melville as they refer to his actions in France.

                          " McKenna, Joseph -description of sent to ports"
                          " McKenna, Joseph -suspect under observation in Paris"

                          best wishes

                          Phil
                          Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                          Justice for the 96 = achieved
                          Accountability? ....

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                          • #28
                            thanks

                            Hello Phil. Thanks. I shall broaden my search.

                            Cheers.
                            LC

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Hi All,

                              I'm not certain where the name Roger McKenna comes from as all the references I have list him as Joseph or Joseph Patrick McKenna.

                              It's interesting that in the following newspaper cutting it was denied that McKenna was ever in Europe. Mind you, as much of the police shenanigans going on around the time of the WM and Special Commission were of a shady, if not downright illegal, nature it's hard to get a firm grasp on the truth.

                              NY Times, 6th June 1888–

                              Click image for larger version

Name:	McKenna.JPG
Views:	1
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ID:	659752

                              I've got an artist's sketch of Moroney which I'll dig out and post.

                              Regards,

                              Simon
                              Last edited by Simon Wood; 07-06-2010, 06:00 PM. Reason: spolling mistook
                              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hello Simon,

                                "Roger" McKenna comes from Andrew Cook's book, above. Where HE got the name from, I do not know, as it seems that Joseph McKenna is the correct name.
                                Whether THAT name is his real name, however, is another matter.

                                I wonder what happened to "carroty"?.....

                                best wishes

                                Phil
                                Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                                Justice for the 96 = achieved
                                Accountability? ....

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