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  • Why Is William Melville Listed On Casebook?

    O.K., I'll bite, why is William Melville mentioned on the list of police officials on Casebook Forums?

    I can see why "Johnny Upright" Thick should be there ; and Inspector Ferrett and P.C. Batten; and P.C. Large; and Sergeant Badham...
    But why is poor Inspector/Superintendent William Melville sitting up in the list when he is the only policeman with his own thread with NOT ONE ENTRY TO HIS POOR NAME?

    Now, anyone who has read Bernard Porter's book on the Metropolitan Police Special Branch, or Mr Clutterbuck's marvellously generous and informative thesis from the University of Portsmouth, on the same subject or Mr Butterworth's new book on the Specials, will know all about Inspector Melville...

    But what did Insp. M. have to do with the JTR cases?

    (Just Wonderin'...).

    JOHN RUFFELS.

  • #2
    Melville

    Hello John,

    I am currently looking into Melville and may hopefully be able to post something more about the man in the future. Butterworth's book is pretty revealing, and other books, such as M MI5's first Spymaster, by Andrew Cook, are also worth a read.

    best wishes

    Phil
    Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


    Justice for the 96 = achieved
    Accountability? ....

    Comment


    • #3
      Melville and Butterworth

      Hello Phil. Yes, Melville, I think, will prove interesting to the case/s, given his position within SB.

      Butterworth's book is worth its weight in gold (although I get the uncanny feeling he has been reading my research notes!). He has one glaring omission, and that is the absence of the Stellmacher & Kammerer business. Still, his observation about the "Ripper" is worth its weight in gold.

      Cheers, young fella.
      LC

      Comment


      • #4
        OOh! It Sounds Goood!

        Hello Phil,
        That sounds tantalising. About William Melville. I am arranging to purchase Butterworth. But Andrew Cross's book sounds engrossing too.

        Oh Dear! So many IPads So Little Time!

        And Hello Lyn,
        Your remark " his observation about the Ripper is worth its weight in gold"!!
        Yikes! And the poor many sat, unloved on the Casebook Forums without a thread to his name!
        One can be tooooo secretive in my opinion.

        Oh Phil,
        I love Kipling's little poem "we shall peep and pry"... sounds straight out of the Special Branch's Manual Of Peeping And Prying.

        Thank you both for setting forth so many promising sunlit uplands for me.

        JOHN RUFFELS.

        Comment


        • #5
          Anarchist Murder Plan

          The following is from The Sydney Morning Herald of Wednesday, 25 April 1894, page 7:




          THE ANARCHISTS.
          CONFESSION BY FARANDI.
          LONDON, APBIL 23.
          Farandi, the anarchist who was arrested in London, has confessed that he intended to murder Inspector William Melville, of the Criminal Investigation Department, Scotland Yard, who is responsible forFix this text tracking the anarchist's. He stated that Polti's bomb was intended for the Royal Exchange, and was to have been exploded there during business hours.


          And Phil,

          And the lines of Rudyard Kipling I was thinking of, as I'm sure you are aware, were:-

          "We shall peep and mutter;
          and the night shall bring
          Watchers 'neath our window
          Lest we mock the King.

          He shall mark our goings,
          Question whence we came,
          Set his guards about us,
          As in Freedom's name, "


          JOHN RUFFELS.

          Comment


          • #6
            grist

            Hello John. Then permit me to explain. He refers to the WCM as "grist to the mill." And although Butterworth halts between opinions here, that phrase--in my humble point of view--is the key to understanding the whole sordid affair.

            After the first 2 murders, by what appears to be a butcher experienced with a knife, the latter 3 of the C5 look like, "I'm Brian--and so's my wife." Or, if you prefer your Brother Cadfael, it looks like "One corpse too many."

            So, literally, "grist to the mill" of those (as I maintain) may otherwise have killed, but in a different fashion.

            Cheers.
            LC

            Comment


            • #7
              Is That In Swahili?

              Sorry Lynn,

              Were those last two paras in Swahili?
              I don't speak Swahili.

              And I'm afraid I could not make the connection between para two and the last.

              Particularly, I could not make the " jump to the " grist of the mill" remark.

              It might be just me.

              JOHN RUFFELS.

              Comment


              • #8
                put another way

                Hello John. Sorry, I did not intend to be murky.

                I think that the killings of Polly and Annie were effectuated by the major police suspect, Isenschmid. Afterwards, those 2 killings were used by others as a pretext for their own ends.

                I will tread carefully here and offer an analogy. Suppose there is a serial rapist on the loose. My wife has a tryst and, for whatever reason, discovers she is pregnant. What better story than, "Well, late one night this horrible man burst in and raped me"? (I'm sure you recall the story of David, Bathsheba, and Uriah.) Well, merely extrapolate and I think you will get my direction.

                Hence, the killings were "grist to someone's mill." Put simply, it is my belief that Liz, Kate and Mary Jane would still have died, but in the case of the latter 2--in a much more paedestrian fashion. However, with the "Ripper" on the loose . . .

                Hope this is more understandable.

                Cheers.
                LC

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Johnr View Post
                  The following is from The Sydney Morning Herald of Wednesday, 25 April 1894, page 7:
                  THE ANARCHISTS.
                  CONFESSION BY FARANDI.
                  LONDON, APBIL 23.
                  Farandi, the anarchist who was arrested in London, has confessed that he intended to murder Inspector William Melville, of the Criminal Investigation Department, Scotland Yard, who is responsible forFix this text tracking the anarchist's. He stated that Polti's bomb was intended for the Royal Exchange, and was to have been exploded there during business hours.


                  And Phil,

                  And the lines of Rudyard Kipling I was thinking of, as I'm sure you are aware, were:-

                  "We shall peep and mutter;
                  and the night shall bring
                  Watchers 'neath our window
                  Lest we mock the King.

                  He shall mark our goings,
                  Question whence we came,
                  Set his guards about us,
                  As in Freedom's name, "


                  JOHN RUFFELS.
                  Hello John,

                  Melville is more of a player in this game than is thought, I believe. His rise to being head of Special Branch came at a particularly opportune time, with various key people leaving, retiring and moving on. Littlechild's Secret Dept doings are all very cagey, and yet with Melville, his handling of the Walsall bomb incident is so apparently staged that when one compares the two gentlemen's work methodology, one sees great differences.

                  Jenkinson, Anderson, Monro, Williamson, Littlechild and Melville created quite a set up between them over the course of a relatively short time period. And each and every one of them were all strong characters in their own right.

                  As far as Kipling is concerned, I admit to having a penchant for his works, and the quote you gave is so reflective of his ability to say without saying. There is always a message in his words to heed.

                  best wishes

                  Phil
                  Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                  Justice for the 96 = achieved
                  Accountability? ....

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Phil Carter View Post
                    Butterworth's book is pretty revealing, and other books, such as M MI5's first Spymaster, by Andrew Cook, are also worth a read.
                    I for one do not put too much (if any) stock in Cook's assertion that Melville may have detained, or attempted to detain, Tumblety in Le Havre, and I seriously question the claim in his book that Melville's son revealed Wm. Melville's involvement in the hunt for JtR on New Zealand radio.

                    Cook's book is to be somewhat recommended for the other stuff on Melville, but I'd treat his Melville/Ripper section with great caution.

                    JM

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hello JM,

                      Thank you JM. Not having at present at my disposal (Cook's book), I will take onboard your words when I come to read and absorb it fully. The chief usage I found is more background stuff on Melville of interest. However, being in the position he was, and with the yet to be revealed Ledgers dangling innocently in the background, we may well find out a lot more of his involvement/non-involvement.

                      Butterworth has been pretty clear in his research and he had restriscted access to the ledgers, without focusing on The Whitechapel Murders and it is quite revealing.

                      best wishes

                      Phil
                      Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                      Justice for the 96 = achieved
                      Accountability? ....

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Which Brings Me Back To The Beginning..

                        Thanks Lynn,
                        For clearing that up. Hmmm, not sure what to think. Interesting you suggest Isenschmidt. Was Monro trying to say by "grist for the mill" that the latter JTR victims were, obvious likely victims because of the risks they were taking?? Sounds like Anderson.

                        Thanks Phil,
                        For your elaboration on the Cook book. Interesting you invoke Melville's and Tumblety's names.

                        And thanks JM for levening the mix from Cooks book. "Well done"( as they say in the cook books).

                        Not having readCook's book, nor Butterworth's, I think I am back at the start of this thread.

                        After all, a quick look in the "Ultimate Sourcebook" (that's "Sourcebook not "Saucebook"), and the "A To Z", both fail to reveal any mention of Inspector Melville.

                        However, I did refer back to Christopher Andrew's Authorized History of M15:
                        " The Defence Of The Realm": (Allen Lane: London: 2009).I mentioned him earlier on this thread.

                        It seems, according to a National Archives file, cited in Andrew,at page 101,
                        there was potential for government embarrassment( when the U.K. government interned the new Russian Provisional Government's Representative, Chicherin), because of Melville's close relationship with the Czarist Ochrana rep in London, Pyotr Rachkovsky.

                        I wonder if the MPSB or Melville's office suspected the JTR murders as being a Communist plot?

                        JOHN RUFFELS.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          errata

                          Hello John. Thanks, as always.

                          "Grist for the mill" was Butterworth's phrase--and in a slightly different context.

                          As for Monro, I think he eventually figured it out, and his suspicions constituted a "hot potato," duly destroyed by his descendants. (Why it should constitute such, I'm sure I don't know.)

                          There is some evidence that the upper echelons of SY were thinking along these same lines. For example, Sir Charles wrote in an October 12th missive that "the last murders [ie, Stride and Eddowes--LC] were obviously done by some one desiring to bring discredit on the Jews and Socialists or Jewish Socialists." Quite an admission.

                          For some time I, like Sir Charles, have given myself to such speculation. I have wondered about the facial mutilations on Kate and have come to consider them primary in understanding her demise. It has been demonstrated that her assailant tried to remove her nose and caused collateral damage to the face (the V marks). Then, on a second or third attempt settled on the nose tip and part of an ear.

                          If you notice, there is a news clipping (no pun intended) on my Kaufmann thread, where socialists, in retribution for police spying, cut off a man's nose and ears. The note left behind read, we cut off your nose for being a police sleuth and your ears for being an ass. (my paraphrase.)

                          Notice, too, that Kate's assailant tried to reproduce the Chapman slaying but made a rum job of it. (See Baxter's summation of the Stride murder, especially the remarks about skillful C1 & C2 and unskillful C4.)

                          Obviously, there are many pieces of the puzzle left to put in place; but, I think this is a start.

                          As for SY, they did a remarkable job. In my humble opinion, they caught "Jack" and safely caged him in an asylum on September 12th, without fully grasping the situation. As for the rest, I believe they had suspicions coinciding with my own.

                          But enough speculation. Let's bring on more facts!

                          Thanks for listening to a feeble minded old flatulator with time on his hands.

                          Cheers.
                          LC

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            A brief history (pt. 1)

                            Hello Lynn, Johnr, all,

                            William Melville:-

                            born 25.4.1850, Sneem, County Kerry, Ireland. Baptised, Roman Catholic, 26.4.1850.(1)(2)

                            Son of James and Catherine Melville. (Family legend says he was actually born at Direenaclaurig Cross, a junction of two roads(3)
                            population in 1850 was 360 people.

                            His father, James, was a farmer.(4) who later became the owner of a bakery and liquor seller (a bakery within a pub or vice versa) (5)
                            On early documentation the family name appears to be Melvin, not Melville.(6)
                            Played the game of Hurley at a young age (7), probably leaving home at either 17 or 21 years of age (8)

                            Became a baker in Kennington, Lambeth(9), before becoming enrolled into London's Metropolitan Police, 18th September 1872. Dismissed 20th November 1872 (insubordination) and recomenced 29th November 1872(10)(11)
                            Transferred to L Division, (Lambeth and Walworth) 1873
                            Newspaper reference as policeman was in 1876 in the Times, 25th September, 1876, page 12. Referred to as a 'detective', he alternated between plain clothes and uniform.

                            Married Kate Reilly 20th February 1879, St. Georges RC Church, Southwark.

                            Promoted to Detective Sergeant, CID June 1879. Stationed at P Division. (Camberwell, Walworth and Peckham.

                            According to 1881 census, baby Margaret Gertie (18months) and her mother and father were living at 44 Liverpool Street (later changed to Liverpool Grove), near Walworth Police Station. In 1882, child No. 2, another daughter, called Kate, was born.

                            In March 1883, when his wife was expecting his third child, he was offered a position at the new covert branch of the CID, called the Special Irish Branch (SIB) with Superintendant "Dolly" Williamson at it's head. This was established in response to a Fenian bombing campaign, that had started in 1881.

                            (More to follow)

                            best wishes

                            Phil





                            Bibliography :-

                            (1) Father Walsh, priest in Sneem 1829-1866
                            (2) From the diaries of FatherJohn O'Sullivan (later ArchDeacon of Kenmare) referring to Father Walsh, his life, and his erratic Parish record keeping.
                            (3) Dan Browning and Ferrie Galway, "M from Sneem" 1999 edition of Sneem Parish News incorporating Sneem past and present, page 6.
                            (4) Land valuation Records, 1852
                            (5) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
                            (6) Registration Office, Births, Marraiges and Deaths, Southern Health
                            Board, Killarney, County Kerry, and correspondance between Patrick Murphy, 2004
                            (7) Polce Review, 1896.
                            (8) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
                            (9) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
                            (10) 'E' Divison Register, No. 310, Metroploitan Police.
                            (11) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
                            Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-03-2010, 11:04 AM.
                            Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                            Justice for the 96 = achieved
                            Accountability? ....

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              A brief history (pt.2)

                              William Melville cont.. from "M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition." by Andrew Cook.

                              13 detectives gathered together for meeting 17th March 1883 upon instigation of Williamson's SIB (Special Irish Branch) were the following:-

                              Cheif Inspector Littlechild
                              Inspectors:- Hope and Ahern,
                              Sergeants:- Jenkins, Melville, Regan,
                              Constables:- Thorpe, McIntyre, Walsh, Foy, O'Sullivan, and two named Enright(12)

                              In 1883, the family moved to Brixton. Kate gave birth to child No.3, William John, 3rd July 1883. Tragically, Margaret Gertie died of scarlet fever the very same day.

                              March 1884, Melville transferred to Le Havre, under Jenkinson (Secret Service), along with 8 others from the originally 12 under Littlechild.

                              January 1887, Jenkinson forced out of job, burned all his papers, leaving James Monro in charge of Irish Intelligence (London) and Secret Service. CID reorganised thus:-

                              Section A (Ordinary) Serious crime.
                              Section B, headed by Williamson, 25 strong group dealing with Irish affairs in London, the same as the old SIB.
                              Section C, Port Police.

                              All Section Heads reported directly to Charles Warren.

                              SECTION D however, was different. Called Special Branch, financed separately from the Metropolitan Police, via the Home Office from the Treasury. Consisted of just 4 policemen. Littlechild (head), reporting to Monro (he reported to Home Secretary Matthews, not Sir Charles Warren), with three Inspectors:-
                              Melville, Pope and Quinn.
                              They would work outside London if need be, and kept an eye on Political agitators in general, potentially murderous ones in particular. But all information that came from America was reported from Robert Anderson's spy, Le Caron to Anderson, then directly on to Monro.

                              Important to remember however, that although Jenkinson had retired, much to Monro's annoyance, little pockets of Jenkinson's "ghosts" kept on appearing, as informants turned up having been paid by Jenkinson or the Foreign Office. This included Milen, Casey and Hayes and Carroll-Trevis, amongst others, and a few of "Jenkinson's girls" working amongst the lower class communities of London. But Jenkinson was, infact, for Home Rule, and this was the reason he had insisted on complete control over the Irish situation in the first place.

                              March 1887 Another daughter, Cecilia was born to William and Kate, in Le Havre.

                              At this time. Monro was very concerned with the problem of explosives on their way from the USA to France, Le Have, via a passenger ship line for delivery to someone called Miller or Muller, in Paris.
                              At the same time, Melville noticed a gentleman by the name of Muller travelling through. He was described as a thin, middle-aged American wearing an Astrakhan-collared coat having left New York on 18th April onboard a ship called the Gascogne. Melville followed Muller to Paris, and found out he signed himself in as General F.F.Millen.... the problem was that Millen was working for the British, but as Jenkinson had burned his papers, all but his successor kinew the fact. Also, that Carroll-Trevis was a Foreign Office spy having moved up within the Fenian movement. So Monro knew nothing about Muller (Millen) and Trevis.
                              Following the threats made to the Queen in the Jubillee Dynamite Plot, Melville reported to Monro that Millen was travelling to the coast, Boulogne, and followed him there. He discovered that Millen's wife had travelled from Dublin to join him in Boulogne. They did not go to England though, and Melville discovered that a recently retired detective called Thomson and his wife arrived, stayed at the same hotel as Millen and the two couples made friends. Both couples then transferred to another hotel. Nobody knew who exactly had sent Thomson (undercover), though it was suspected that Robert Anderson had done so.

                              The whole stuatiuon became even more serious when Melville contacted Monro, saying that he no longer had access to Millen's letters, as he had started to post them himself. Monro, through the Foreign Office, then Lord Salisbury, Prime Minister, got the approval of the Police in France to assist Melville, and intercept the letters Millen was sending. This having happened, Superintendant "Dolly" Williamson turns up in Boulgne, demanding, on Monro's orders, Millen's "absolute disclosure and abandonmentof his mission", believing that Millen planned to assassinate the Queen on behalf of the Irish faction Clan-na-Gael. Millen would neither confirm nor deny anything.
                              Melville got hold of the letters long enough to read them and summarise them.The idea was to close down the Jubillee plot.
                              In the meantime, Carroll-Trevis had employed the use of a person called Cassidy to ship the explosives for the plot, and he did. Unbeknowing to Monro, they arrived in the form of dynamite powder onboard the ship the City Of Chester in Liverpool on Jubillee day along with two brothers called Scott and a person called Mr. Joseph "Melville", who's real name was Moroney.

                              However, Monro discovered that Moroney had been instructed to complete the task that Millen had been failing upon. On 21st June 1887, Millen waited with bags packed ready for flight, but nothing happened. For Monro had been told (by Melville) that Millen had been writing to Sullivan, the head of Clan-na-Gael in the USA, who knew what Cassidy and Carroll-Trevis was up to. To confuse thissue further (such is undercover work, one clearly sees) neither Millen nor Monro knew that Carroll.Trevis as anything but an agaent of the Fenian brotherhood. . Nor did Monro know that Millen had reported to both Sullivan and Trevis his reason for not completing the job himself, because of close police vigilance. Neither did Monro know, as yet, of Sullivan sending Moroney and others to do the job instead.

                              Millen left Boulogne 6 days afterwards for Paris, where Melville was waiting for him, staying at the same hotel. They became acquainted, and the whole Millen family, including his daughters Kitty (who lived in London) and Florence, from Dublin, arrived. Melville helped the girls with French lessons.
                              When Kitty and Florence arrived back in London, Melville left as well, where he followed her to South Kensington, and handed over responsibility to Detective Inspector Quinn. The two daughters met an Irish MP at the House of Commons and Kitty passed to him a cache of letters instructed by her father, recommending a certain Joseph Moroney to three Irish MP's.

                              In the meantime, Littlechild's men, McIntyre, Quinn and Walsh went after the others who arribed with Moroney in Liverpool. They remained in London living a poor life, because only Moroney had any access to money. When an associate of Millen and Moroney died of Tb in Paris, Monro used the inquest to expose the Jubillee plot and its associaition with Millen in front of many journalists.

                              Dynamite was discovered in Islington, dumped in a back yard, in late 1887, and Moroney's co-conspiritors were arrested. They recieved long prison sentences, and one died in prison, the other was released after petitions to the Home Secretary after 6 years.

                              Millen left for the USA in October 1887, and died of natural causes in 1889. In March 1888 the rewards were handed out, and Melville had earned himself the princely sum of 25. Melville was, it seems posted to Paris at this time.

                              (more to follow)

                              best wishes

                              Phil






                              Bibliography:-

                              (12) Andrew Cook, M MI5's First Spymaster 2006 edition.
                              Last edited by Phil Carter; 07-03-2010, 01:18 PM.
                              Chelsea FC. TRUE BLUE. 💙


                              Justice for the 96 = achieved
                              Accountability? ....

                              Comment

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