Watkins or Harvey?

[Wickerman]

No , as all reports say Holland arrived followed by Sequeira .
Not Holland was sent to fetch Sequeira !

Together with Constable Hollins (Holland) I went to Mitre-square, where Watkins was by the side of the body of the deceased. Hollins went for Dr. Sequeira, and a private individual was despatched for other constables, who arrived almost immediately, having heard the whistle.
Daily Telegraph

We went together to Mitre-square, where we saw Police-constable Watkins. The constable (Holland) who followed me went for a medical man, and private individuals were despatched for more police assistance. They came almost immediately.
Standard.

I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself. He was followed by Dr. Sequeira. Inspector Collard arrived about two o'clock, and Dr. Brown, who is surgeon to the police force.i can't make anyone take these discrepancies on board .....all I can do is point them out

No-one is saying that Watkins was not alone with the body, he was, but only until Harvey & Holland came together, then Holland was sent for the doctor, leaving Harvey with Watkins.

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,

Harvey 'claimed 'to arrive with Holland .
Watkins only mentions Holland ,followed by Sequeira .
As Holland got a mention you would expect Harvey to get one too , especially as he would have been there with Watkins as they waited for Holland to return with Sequeira .
Watkins quite clearly stated that he was alone with the body .

"I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself."

And Harvey arrived with Holland, making PC Watkins alone before Holland arrived with Harvey. Where's the discrepancy? Other than not mentioning PC Harvey, but again, it's Holland who goes on to get Dr. Sequeria and so is part of the chain of events he's mentioning.

And why would Harvey have trusted these members of the general public to pass the info on to Collard , as Watkins was watching the body and Holland was fetching Sequeira , it should have been Harvey who ran to Bishopsgate ..... had he been there at all .
Would Collard have telegraphed on the say so of a passer by ? And who the hell would be 'passing by' anyway ?
That SHOULD have been Harvey going to fetch Collard

The police had members of the public do things, like fetch people and so forth. I think this was just more common then than now. Different, but not suspicious for the day.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

Police officers were moving all over the area:

Inspector Daniel Halse was patrolling on AHS with Officers Marriott and Outram when summoned by George Morris’ whistle to Mitre Square. Halse and his colleagues were later sent by McWilliam to search the areas east of the Square. Halse returned to Mitre Square and was accompanied by (then) Detective Sergeants (Baxter) Hunt and Lawley to the Leman Police Station where they viewed the piece of apron, and then went to the scene of the writing on the wall in Goulston Street; Halse then returned to the Square and accompanied Inspector Collard, Doctors Sequeria and Brown to the Golden Lane Mortuary with the body; Inspector (then Detective Sergeant) Downes accompanied Superintendent McWilliam to Bishopsgate Police Station after McWilliam returned from Mitre Square with Inspector George Izzard; Izzard later assisted Sergeants Dudman and Phillips with crowd control in Mitre Square the morning after the Eddowes murder.

[packers stem]

Together with Constable Hollins (Holland) I went to Mitre-square, where Watkins was by the side of the body of the deceased. Hollins went for Dr. Sequeira, and a private individual was despatched for other constables, who arrived almost immediately, having heard the whistle.
Daily Telegraph

We went together to Mitre-square, where we saw Police-constable Watkins. The constable (Holland) who followed me went for a medical man, and private individuals were despatched for more police assistance. They came almost immediately.
Standard.



No-one is saying that Watkins was not alone with the body, he was, but only until Harvey & Holland came together, then Holland was sent for the doctor, leaving Harvey with Watkins.

That's not what Watkins said at all

remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself. He was followed by Dr. Sequeira.

Notice the HE (singular) was followed
it's perfectly clear that Watkins was talking about Holland returning alone ,Sequeira following behind , making perfect sense.
Alone until this point .
No amount of ripperology word play can alter this

[packers stem]

Hi packers stem,


"I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself."

And Harvey arrived with Holland, making PC Watkins alone before Holland arrived with Harvey. Where's the discrepancy? Other than not mentioning PC Harvey, but again, it's Holland who goes on to get Dr. Sequeria and so is part of the chain of events he's mentioning.



The police had members of the public do things, like fetch people and so forth. I think this was just more common then than now. Different, but not suspicious for the day.

- Jeff

See above response to Wickerman

You're ignoring the mention that he ( singular .... referring to Holland ) was followed by Sequeira .
This in anybody's book , relates to Holland arriving AFTER fetching Sequiera.

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,

See above response to Wickerman

You're ignoring the mention that he ( singular .... referring to Holland ) was followed by Sequeira .
This in anybody's book , relates to Holland arriving AFTER fetching Sequiera.

from the inquest:

James Harvey - ... When I got to Aldgate returning to Duke Street I heard a whistle blown and saw the Witness Morris with a lamp. I went to him and asked what was the matter. He said, "A woman has been ripped up in Mitre Square." I saw a constable on the other side of the street. I said "Come with me." We went into Mitre Square and saw Watkins there and the Deceased. Constable Holland who followed me when for Dr. Sequeria. ..."

so yes, Holland returns later with Sequeira, but he had originally arrived with PC Harvey. And Watkins was alone until Harvey and Holland first arrived.

- Jeff

[Michael W Richards]

A good point to consider here. I find it interesting that you've pointed out a potential perjury on the part of Harvey, and I think it speaks to our ability to trust his timings and actions as a result. Ive always felt that Harvey did not look into the square that night as his beat dictated, but I don't have any sinister motivation for that either. I think he just skipped it that night, maybe many nights, and he got caught with his pants down on that particular night.

This was a square that was primarily unoccupied dwellings and warehouse spaces, could you see a beat cop presuming an all quiet situation in there most nights? I can.

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,



from the inquest:

James Harvey - ... When I got to Aldgate returning to Duke Street I heard a whistle blown and saw the Witness Morris with a lamp. I went to him and asked what was the matter. He said, "A woman has been ripped up in Mitre Square." I saw a constable on the other side of the street. I said "Come with me." We went into Mitre Square and saw Watkins there and the Deceased. Constable Holland who followed me when for Dr. Sequeria. ..."

so yes, Holland returns later with Sequeira, but he had originally arrived with PC Harvey. And Watkins was alone until Harvey and Holland first arrived.

- Jeff

And also from the inquest, testimony of George James Morris:

...I went over to the corner and shewed my light on the body. I immediately blew my whistle and ran up Mitre Street into Algate. I saw no suspicious person. About then 2 Constables came up. They asked me what was the matter. I told them to go down Mitre Square, there was another terrilbe murder. I then followed the constables down and took charge of my own premises again - I heard no noise in the Square before I was called by Constable Watkins. ...

And the 2 Constables were Havey and Holland, and Morris too indicates they both went to Mtire Square, where Watkins was alone.

There's no discrepancy here. Watkins was alone - he had just found the body, alerted Morris, who located Harvey and Holland, and the two went to Morris, and then Holland went off for Dr. Sequeira and returned with him later. The alone bit refers to before Harvey and Holland first arrive, and the "he was followed by Sequeira" refers to after Holland had left and came back with him.

- Jeff

[packers stem]

A good point to consider here. I find it interesting that you've pointed out a potential perjury on the part of Harvey, and I think it speaks to our ability to trust his timings and actions as a result. Ive always felt that Harvey did not look into the square that night as his beat dictated, but I don't have any sinister motivation for that either. I think he just skipped it that night, maybe many nights, and he got caught with his pants down on that particular night.

This was a square that was primarily unoccupied dwellings and warehouse spaces, could you see a beat cop presuming an all quiet situation in there most nights? I can.

Quite possibly Michael
For whatever reason ,his testimony was bull as we can see and he was sacked 8 months later ...... and we're not told why .
Compare with Hutt , a fellow City officer with a number of marks on his record , all recorded .... but never sacked , only suspended

[packers stem]

And also from the inquest, testimony of George James Morris:

...I went over to the corner and shewed my light on the body. I immediately blew my whistle and ran up Mitre Street into Algate. I saw no suspicious person. About then 2 Constables came up. They asked me what was the matter. I told them to go down Mitre Square, there was another terrilbe murder. I then followed the constables down and took charge of my own premises again - I heard no noise in the Square before I was called by Constable Watkins. ...

And the 2 Constables were Havey and Holland, and Morris too indicates they both went to Mtire Square, where Watkins was alone.

There's no discrepancy here. Watkins was alone - he had just found the body, alerted Morris, who located Harvey and Holland, and the two went to Morris, and then Holland went off for Dr. Sequeira and returned with him later. The alone bit refers to before Harvey and Holland first arrive, and the "he was followed by Sequeira" refers to after Holland had left and came back with him.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff
you can stamp your feet and do a ripperology dance with the words all you like , it changes nothing .
It's perfectly clear that Watkins is referring to Holland being followed by Sequeira .
This could not apply earlier .
Morris was an older fella who had just been running .
He followed BEHIND ....
I suggest Holland went straight for Sequeira .
If you want to believe Harvey ,you've also got to explain where his bystanders appeared from ,why on earth he trusted them to do his job for him and why Watkins didn't spot these either .
let's get real shall we
Be better to accept and put your efforts into why he lied and was fired

HE (singular and relating to Holland ,only Holland ) was followed by Sequeira .
prior to this point in time , he clearly stated he was alone .
Not rocket science this

[Wickerman]

A good point to consider here. I find it interesting that you've pointed out a potential perjury on the part of Harvey, and I think it speaks to our ability to trust his timings and actions as a result. Ive always felt that Harvey did not look into the square that night as his beat dictated, but I don't have any sinister motivation for that either. I think he just skipped it that night, maybe many nights, and he got caught with his pants down on that particular night.

This was a square that was primarily unoccupied dwellings and warehouse spaces, could you see a beat cop presuming an all quiet situation in there most nights? I can.

Michael, one poster's misunderstanding of the testimony does not constitute perjury by Harvey.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff
you can stamp your feet and do a ripperology dance with the words all you like , it changes nothing .
It's perfectly clear that Watkins is referring to Holland being followed by Sequeira .

Yes, after Holland first went to Mitre Square he went to get Sequeira. That's clear enough.

This could not apply earlier .

It most certainly does, given that's exactly how the testimony reads.

Morris was an older fella who had just been running .
He followed BEHIND ....

Making it quite easy to see them in front of him.

I suggest Holland went straight for Sequeira .

Which is exactly what the evidence says did not happen.

If you want to believe Harvey ,you've also got to explain where his bystanders appeared from ,why on earth he trusted them to do his job for him and why Watkins didn't spot these either .

Hmmm, let's see, Algate was busy, people see activity with the police. There were people in St. James Place, and the police are fanning out asking questions. And people start to gather. Happened at Kelly's murder too, and wasn't long before there were crowd's at Chapman's, and Nichol's had the slaughtermen and others show up. Seems like a crowd tended to gather at all crime scenes. This one is no exception.

let's get real shall we

Yes, please do. The evidence is about as straight forward as it gets. Let's not force ambiguities where there are none. There's enough already.

Be better to accept and put your efforts into why he lied and was fired

It's clear he didn't lie. Why he was fired is unknown.

HE (singular and relating to Holland ,only Holland ) was followed by Sequeira .

Yes he was. But Holland first went to Mitre Square with Havey, when PC Watkins was alone.

prior to this point in time , he clearly stated he was alone .
Not rocket science this

Sigh, no, prior to Harvey and Holland first arriving from Algate when summond by Morris was when Watkins was alone. It might help to actually read all the testimonies.

- Jeff

[Scott Nelson]

Morris' whistle probably attracted bystanders. And don't forget the others.. Outram, Marriott and Halse were also there (came with Morris).

[packers stem]

Morris' whistle probably attracted bystanders. And don't forget the others.. Outram, Marriott and Halse were also there (came with Morris).

No they didn't.
They 'heard' at two minutes to two .
Morris was back in the warehouse by then.
Amazingly accurate these times weren't they ?
Hear about a murder and first thought is "wonder what time it is" as opposed to running there

[packers stem]

Yes, after Holland first went to Mitre Square he went to get Sequeira. That's clear enough.

It most certainly does, given that's exactly how the testimony reads.

Making it quite easy to see them in front of him.

Which is exactly what the evidence says did not happen.

Hmmm, let's see, Algate was busy, people see activity with the police. There were people in St. James Place, and the police are fanning out asking questions. And people start to gather. Happened at Kelly's murder too, and wasn't long before there were crowd's at Chapman's, and Nichol's had the slaughtermen and others show up. Seems like a crowd tended to gather at all crime scenes. This one is no exception.

Yes, please do. The evidence is about as straight forward as it gets. Let's not force ambiguities where there are none. There's enough already.

It's clear he didn't lie. Why he was fired is unknown.

Yes he was. But Holland first went to Mitre Square with Havey, when PC Watkins was alone.


Sigh, no, prior to Harvey and Holland first arriving from Algate when summond by Morris was when Watkins was alone. It might help to actually read all the testimonies.

- Jeff

Keep doing that ripperology jig mate lol
I'm not going to go with splitting the points for you , it's really not worth the effort .

Watkins testimony is very ,very simple .
You don't wish to accept it , that is your choice , I guess it's important to you to cling to it .

I will just keep repeating the relevant lines to you .....

I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself. Holland was followed by Dr. Sequeira. Inspector Collard arrived about two o'clock, and also Dr. Brown, surgeon to the police force.

There was no Holland and Harvey
Holland and a.n.other
No Holland came and then went for Sequeira

Holland arrived , Holland was followed by Sequeira ......

Time to put Harvey to one side