Watkins or Harvey?

[packers stem]

At the Eddowes inquest the testimonies of City PC's Watkins and Harvey contradicted so badly that there could be little room for any other conclusion than that one of them lied.
Not unusual for the inquests from the double event onwards but this was blatant and no room for the usual 'human error' or 'ambiguous interpretation' offered in defence .
Which one lied can't be known .

Watkins stated that he waited alone with the body until Holland arrived bringing along Sequeira .

Harvey stated that he remained in the square with Watkins .

Watkins couldn't possibly fail to notice that fellow city officer was stood next to him discussing the crime for 10 minutes whilst waiting for Holland ....

Now this raises the possibility that perjury was the reason for the unknown dismissal of Harvey some 8 months later .
If so , where was he when he should have been with Watkins ?

[Scott Nelson]

Watkins remained alone with the body while sending Morris and his whistle into Aldgate. PCs Halse, Outram and Marriott were alerted as was Harvey, who was patrolling nearby. Halse, Outram, Marriott and Harvey followed Morris to the Square. Holland and Marriott left to summon/alert others. Harvey and the others stayed with Watkins.

[packers stem]

HARVEY
Together with Constable Hollins I went to Mitre-square, where Watkins was by the side of the body of the deceased. Hollins went for Dr. Sequeira, and a private individual was despatched for other constables, who arrived almost immediately, having heard the whistle. I waited with Watkins, and information was sent to the inspector

WATKINS
I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself. Holland was followed by Dr. Sequeira. Inspector Collard arrived about two o'clock, and also Dr. Brown, surgeon to the police force.

[Wickerman]

So Harvey & Holland arrive together, Holland leaves to get Dr.Sequiera. Watkins did not mention the arrival of Harvey, but they were both together with the body after Holland left.
Why should there be an issue with that?

[packers stem]

So Harvey & Holland arrive together, Holland leaves to get Dr.Sequiera. Watkins did not mention the arrival of Harvey, but they were both together with the body after Holland left.
Why should there be an issue with that?

The issue is that Watkins at no point mentions Harvey arriving, staying with him while Holland was off looking for a doctor .He confuses alone with having Harvey alongside him .

The Times take on events

Witness remained by the side of the body till the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one was there with witness till Holland arrived, and he was followed by Dr. Sequeira. Inspector Collard arrived about 2, and Dr. Gordon Brown, surgeon to the City police force, followed.

[Joshua Rogan]

The Star seems to have the most verbatim coverage of Watkins' evidence, including questions, from which it can be seen that it's the coroner who brings up Holland first;

"Did you touch the body? - No, sir. I ran across the road to Messrs. Kearley and Tonge's warehouse and called the watchman inside, a man named Morris. He came out, and I sent him for assistance.

Did you remain by the side of the body till the arrival of Police-constable Holland? - I did.

Was there anyone about but yourself? - No one till Holland arrived"

[Wickerman]

Yes, most of the press coverage is paraphrase.
When we have the coroner asking specifically, "did you remain until Holland arrived" it does not mean no-one else arrived with Holland.
Yet, the exchange can be represented quite differently when a third party converts what was said to paraphrase.
Ie; "no-one was with Watkins until Holland arrived", is paraphrase, and could be interpreted to mean Holland & Watkins were alone, which would be wrong.

This is a fine example of why it is ALWAYS necessary to collate the sources and not just pick one out of preference.

[packers stem]

Yes, most of the press coverage is paraphrase.
When we have the coroner asking specifically, "did you remain until Holland arrived" it does not mean no-one else arrived with Holland.
Yet, the exchange can be represented quite differently when a third party converts what was said to paraphrase.
Ie; "no-one was with Watkins until Holland arrived", is paraphrase, and could be interpreted to mean Holland & Watkins were alone, which would be wrong.

This is a fine example of why it is ALWAYS necessary to collate the sources and not just pick one out of preference.

Nobody arrived with Holland , Sequeira followed a little way behind him .
Still clear that Harvey was not around

[Joshua Rogan]

Nobody arrived with Holland , Sequeira followed a little way behind him .
Still clear that Harvey was not around

So do you also think Halse perjured himself? Watkins doesn't mention him at all, yet by his testimony he arrived with two other detectives (neither of whom are mentioned by Watkins either). Halse even states that when he arrived "I had the light of Watkins turned on the body, and saw that it was a murder". Not a word of this from Watkins....so is this another obvious fabrication?

[JeffHamm]

Hi packers stem,

Nobody arrived with Holland , Sequeira followed a little way behind him .
Still clear that Harvey was not around

As mentioned above, Harvey arrived with Holland. A fair number of people showed up in a relatively short space of time, during testimony he's not going to give a roll call of everyone. Holland was sent off to get Dr. Sequeira, hence he gets a mention because he is directly involved in an important chain of events (the sending for Dr. Sequeira). If you look through various the various inquest testimony you'll often see some people who were there don't get a mention by one PC or another. The ones that get a mention are usually the ones that are either directed to do something with regards to the investigation chain of events (i.e. Holland sent to get the doctor) or some other aspect directly related to a question. For example, in the case of Nichols, we know PC Mizen arrives at some point, but he's almost invisible at the scene, only getting a bit of a mention as a PC sent to get the ambulance. When there's a fair bit of activity, not everyone is highlighted. I don't think there's any real discrepancy between PC Watkins and PC Harvey.

- Jeff

[packers stem]

So do you also think Halse perjured himself? Watkins doesn't mention him at all, yet by his testimony he arrived with two other detectives (neither of whom are mentioned by Watkins either). Halse even states that when he arrived "I had the light of Watkins turned on the body, and saw that it was a murder". Not a word of this from Watkins....so is this another obvious fabrication?

i think you're getting things a little mixed up .
Halse doesn't come into it until after Sequeira's arrival .
Watkins claiming to be alone with the body relates to the time he was waiting for Holland to return with Sequeira .
it's pretty clear

[packers stem]

Hi packers stem,



As mentioned above, Harvey arrived with Holland. A fair number of people showed up in a relatively short space of time, during testimony he's not going to give a roll call of everyone. Holland was sent off to get Dr. Sequeira, hence he gets a mention because he is directly involved in an important chain of events (the sending for Dr. Sequeira). If you look through various the various inquest testimony you'll often see some people who were there don't get a mention by one PC or another. The ones that get a mention are usually the ones that are either directed to do something with regards to the investigation chain of events (i.e. Holland sent to get the doctor) or some other aspect directly related to a question. For example, in the case of Nichols, we know PC Mizen arrives at some point, but he's almost invisible at the scene, only getting a bit of a mention as a PC sent to get the ambulance. When there's a fair bit of activity, not everyone is highlighted. I don't think there's any real discrepancy between PC Watkins and PC Harvey.

- Jeff

Harvey 'claimed 'to arrive with Holland .
Watkins only mentions Holland ,followed by Sequeira .
As Holland got a mention you would expect Harvey to get one too , especially as he would have been there with Watkins as they waited for Holland to return with Sequeira .
Watkins quite clearly stated that he was alone with the body .
And why would Harvey have trusted these members of the general public to pass the info on to Collard , as Watkins was watching the body and Holland was fetching Sequeira , it should have been Harvey who ran to Bishopsgate ..... had he been there at all .
Would Collard have telegraphed on the say so of a passer by ? And who the hell would be 'passing by' anyway ?
That SHOULD have been Harvey going to fetch Collard

[packers stem]

The difference here from Bucks Row is that Watkins clearly stated he was alone .
There's a world of difference between forgetting to mention someone in a crowd and categorically stating you were alone with a dead body .

[Joshua Rogan]

i think you're getting things a little mixed up .
Halse doesn't come into it until after Sequeira's arrival .
Watkins claiming to be alone with the body relates to the time he was waiting for Holland to return with Sequeira .
it's pretty clear

You're right, my mistake over Halse's timing. But he still doesn't get a mention. And it's absolutely not clear that Watkins is referring to being alone until Holland's return with Sequeira. That's an impossibility, as Holland had to have already arrived in the square in order to be sent to fetch a doctor in the first place. Look at the wording; the question is about Holland's arrival, not his return with the doctor.

[packers stem]

No , as all reports say Holland arrived followed by Sequeira .
Not Holland was sent to fetch Sequeira !
It seems to me that neither entered the square and that after following Morris back towards the square Holland went straight for Sequeira .
This may explain the seemingly extraordinary speed in which Sequeira was roused from his sleep , dressed and in the square 11 minutes after the discovery , which considering you've a couple of minutes for Watkins to call for Morris ,Morris going back for his lamp , deciding what to do ,Morris going back in to find his magic whistle (you know , the one that doesn't wake residents ,including PC Pierce) , running towards aldgate ,finding two bobbies ,explaining what has happened ..... we must be 5 minutes easily so far ...... leaving only 6 minutes for Holland to get to Sequeira , wake him, wait for him to dress then run at lightening speed to Mitre Square .Where Harvey went who knows but where he should have gone was Bishopsgate .
Again , these private individuals of Harveys weren't noted by either Watkins or Morris but they must have been willing runners for Collard to be on his way at 1.55

I remained with the body until the arrival of Police-constable Holland. No one else was there before that but myself. He was followed by Dr. Sequeira. Inspector Collard arrived about two o'clock, and Dr. Brown, who is surgeon to the police force.

i can't make anyone take these discrepancies on board .....all I can do is point them out