The could be knife Thomas Coram found on October the 1st 1888

[ChrisGeorge]

Chris, I was hunting for the knife history in Don's book and posted what I'd found before reading your post. The knife pictured in Don's book is nothing like the one found in the street in Whitechapel. Frankly, the idea that the Ripper's knife had to be of a certain length or special design is not really based on any solid evidence. Fact is, there is no damage done to any of the Ripper victims that could not be caused by a high-quality steak knife, or a razor for that matter.

John the Knife

Hi John

You are not seriously suggesting that someone could have extracted a kidney with a razor are you?

You also say, "The knife pictured in Don's book is nothing like the one found in the street in Whitechapel." All I am saying is that there is a school of thought that the knife in Don's possession was found at one of the later murder scenes but not one of the canonical murders. But then that sort of speculation is a bit like the alleged piece of Eddowes' skirt with the pattern on it... a lot of myth and legend mixed in where the truth should be.

Chris

[Dr. John Watson]

Hi John

You are not seriously suggesting that someone could have extracted a kidney with a razor are you?

Chris

Absolutely, or a pocket knife for that matter. There are a number of similar "ripper" type murders on record, some of which involve horrendous mutilations and dismemberments, in which the only instrument involved was a common kitchen knife or razor. The oft-cited American case of Otto Wilson is a good example. In 1944, Wilson carved up two prostitutes, the first with a steak knife and the second with a razor blade. The first involved abdominal mutilations similar to those of Eddowes, removal of both breasts, plus complete disarticulation of the left leg at the hip! A crime scene photo of the body shows the instrument he used, a thin long-bladed carving knife he purchased at a skid-row shop shortly before the murder. That photo is probably too graphic to be posted here, but I believe it's available on the internet.

[niko]

Hi to everyone,its me again.Like i mentioned on a previous post,i have talked to JTR expert,by telephone as i live in the Basque country.My stepfarther Mick lives in London, he did a lot of running around London,and was able to personally talk to some experts,also visit and talk to people at musems,including the Black musem.police stations,includeing New Scottland yard.I began to get the feeling we were being passed around,"how can i say,like a rotten fish i supose",maybe its not the correct expresion,on saying this i must say,that all these people i mentioned treated Mick and me with the upmost respect,and to tell you the truth everyone was very helpful.One thing i did manage to understand was,that YES there was a knife found in Whitechapel at the time of the murders,and YES it had been in police custody,but no longer was.It could of possibly been thrown away,or simply went missing from police custody,as other items involved in the Whitechapel murders,main reason being,takeing them as souviniers.Im no policeman,but im sure,knowing there was photographic cameras at the time of the murders,i would of taken a hell of alot of photos relating to the murders.Theres no photograph of the knife Thomas Coram found.I supose someone out there will agree with me on this,that to take souviniers from a police station,you would have to have a policeman friend,or be yourself a policeman.I know many of you think my story to be farfetched,but my curiousity awoke after reading what i believe to be written FACTS regarding the Whitechapel murders.With the up most respect to Mr Donald Rumbelows story of the knife he has in his possesion,my understanding is that he met a womwan,she knew he was researching the JTR case and said to him"ere take this knife,it,s Jack the rippers knife"or somthing like that.Well ill keep on with my story untill i know im absolutely positive im wrong.Like i mentioned on a previous post i have a possible connection with the arch i found the knife and Aaron Kozminski,but ive come to a dead end.I have now started researching the Kozminski connection from another angle,hope truly ill get somwhere, ok then all the best.Agur.

[niko]

Absolutely, or a pocket knife for that matter. There are a number of similar "ripper" type murders on record, some of which involve horrendous mutilations and dismemberments, in which the only instrument involved was a common kitchen knife or razor. The oft-cited American case of Otto Wilson is a good example. In 1944, Wilson carved up two prostitutes, the first with a steak knife and the second with a razor blade. The first involved abdominal mutilations similar to those of Eddowes, removal of both breasts, plus complete disarticulation of the left leg at the hip! A crime scene photo of the body shows the instrument he used, a thin long-bladed carving knife he purchased at a skid-row shop shortly before the murder. That photo is probably too graphic to be posted here, but I believe it's available on the internet.

Hi,i totallly agree with John,the blade dos,nt have to be of great dimensions to commit murder,nor to disembowl somebody,look at primitive man,he used sharp stones to kill and butcher the animals he hunted.all the best.Agur.

[Archaic]

Otto Wilson

Hi everyone.

Here's an article on Otto Wilson's murders that I believe was found and posted here on Casebook by Chris Scott.

http://casebook.org/press_reports/oxnard_press_courier/441116.html

Best regards,
Archaic

[niko]

Laboatory analysis of the Sabatiers cooks knife.

Hi everybody,another point i would like to mention is,of a brief report of when i had the knife analyzed by QUALIFIED persons.The sample they used to analyze was extracted from scraping the interior of the gab between the wooden grips of the handle.Achiveing a powder,grity sample,brief results- they found TWO different DNA,one being a MODERN DNA,this one ofcourse being mine,but the other was a PRIMITIVE DNA of a MALE, "WHO,S". I mentioned to the Doctors of the thick black crust that the knife had when i unburried it, ( nowhone at the laboratory knew or knows about this knife possibly being connected to the Whitechapel murders,they just analized it and i paid ) he said dueing to some small quantites of grease found in the analysis of the sample,that the thick layer of black crust could have been grease. "This makes me think" did somone smuther the knife with grease before being burried? (at one time i thought the black crust was dried blood after reading what i believe to be genuine FACTS ). I asked the Doctors how did the PRIMITIVE DNA orignally penitrate the interior of the handle? he answered,by possible blood filtering in between the wooden handle grips and drying. OK everyone thanks for reading,and hope i aint boring yous to much,all the best,Agur, nearly forgot,hope everyone has a lovely day on Prince Williams and Kate Middletons wedding day in London today.

[niko]

The DailyTelegraph 4 October 1888.

Hi everyone,like i,ve said before,i try and gather information on what i believe to be genuine FACTS related to the Whitechapel murders. For example the articule written about the murders in The Daily Telegraph on the 4th of October 1888. The following is part of the articule. I think the discription of the knife given here is very,very IMPORTANT. Thomas Coram- Ilive at No 67,Plummer,s-road and work for a coconut dealer. On Monday shortly after midnight i left a friends house in Bath-gardens,Brady-street. I walked straight down Brady-street and into Whitechapel-road towards Aldgate. I first walked on the right side of Whitechapel-road and afterwards crossed over to the left,and when opposite No 253 i saw a knife lying on the door step,and the knife was on the bottom step. The production of the knife created some sensation,the discovery not have been generally known. It was a knife such as would be used by a baker in his trade,it being FLAT AT THE TOP INSTEAD OF POINTED,as a BUTCHERS KNIFE would be. The BLADE,which was discoloured with something resembling blood,was QUITE A FOOT LONG ( twelve inches ) long and an inch broad,whilst the BLACK HANDLE WAS SIX INCHES IN LENGTH,and STRONGLY RIVITTED IN THREE PLACES. Witness ( continuing ). There was a hankerchief round the handle of the knife,the hankerchief being first folded and then twisted around the blade. A policeman comeing towards me,i called his attention to the knife,which i did not touch. Did the police take the knife away? - Yes,to Leman-street station,i accompanying him. Were there many people passing at the time?-very few. I do not think i passed more than a dozen from Brady-street to where i found the knife. The weapon could easily be seen.it was light there. Did you pass any poiceman between Brady-street and where the knife was? i passed three policeman. Constable Joseph Drage,282 division-on Monday morning at half past twelve o,clock i was on fixed point duty opposite Brady-street,Whitechapel-road,when i saw the last witness stooping down to pick up somrthing about twenty yards from me. As i went towards him he beckoned me with his finger,and said "policeman,theres a knife lying here" i then saw a LONG-BLADED KNIFE on the door step. I picked up the knife,and found it was smothered with blood. Was it wet?-Dry.A hankerchief,which was also blood stained,was bound round the handle and tied with a STRING. I asked the lad how he came to see................... If we go back to the part where the knife is discribed,IT BEING FLAT AT THE TOP INSTEAD OF POINTED AS A BUTHCHERS KNIFE WOULD BE, hmmm,"my knifes is like a butchers knife and the TIP of the POINT WAS ROUNDED OFF when i found the knife.WAS QUITE A FOOT LONG ( twelve inches ) an inch broad,WHILST THE HANDLE BLACK HANDLE WAS SIX INCHES IN LENGTH,AND STRONGLY RIVITTED IN THREE PLACES. I understand from this that the BLADE was QUITE A FOOT ( twelve inches) LONG,"the blade on my knife is 11.8 inches long, and the broadest part is two inches broad and the HANDLE IS ALSO SIX INCHES LONG,BLACK AND STRONGLY RIVITTED IN THREE PLACES. Like i also say the blade was blunt and bent ( turned ),there was a rotten CLOTH BOUND ROUND THE HANDLE AND TIED WITH A STRING. Ofcourse im trying to convince you all that the knife i have is the one Thomas Coram found. Like i said before,i believe this to be genuine FACTS about the Whitchapel murders,and i believe the discription given ( here ) of the knife and the discription of the knife i have,"come on you must addmit" that the two discriptions sound a hell of a lot the same,thanks for reading and all the best.Agur.

[Ozzy]

I don't know about anybody else but I hate it when I'm intrigued by a thread but end up not reading it because of the way the posts are written.

Niko - I have been through all 6 pages of this thread but as soon as I reach a post from you which is longer than about 10 lines I skip it.
One thing that would help is better grammar. I appreciate English might not be you mother tongue. But I'm sure all(?) languages have basic grammar with paragraphs, capitals, periods, commas etc.
But more importantly than grammar Niko is simply the length of some of the posts. It's as though you type what is in your head instead of thinking about what you want to say first and then typing that down in the most concise way possible. People don't like being bombarded with walls of text. It's just too much to process particularly when the reader has to deal with bad grammar.
This is just some constructive criticism. Your not the first or the last person who types as they think. Just try to take my advice.

What does annoy me a little in your posts, and maybe I'm wrong as like I said I haven't read all of them, is that I get the impression that you are making the same mistake that's made by many books on the Ripper. That is where the author (eg Patricia Cornwell) decides that their suspect (Sickert) was the Ripper and then tries to show why they are correct. And that approach always fails.
Putting the example into context I get the impression that you believe your knife to be the Coram knife and now you're trying to show why you're correct. If I've misunderstood you then my apologies. But if that is what you're doing surely you must be able to understand that it's not the way to go about it.

You have a knife. If I was in your shoes then I might think to myself something like 'wasn't the Coram knife found in similar conditions tied up in a cloth.' But that's about it.
Now going back to the Cornwell example it seems she looked at a photo of Sickert as an old man and that was her moment. She was convinced he was the Ripper. Case Closed. Now seriously I ask you how can she expect other people to believe her. There's no proof in her book.
So if you do believe you have the Coram knife then after my Cornwell example can you appreciate why people wouldn't believe you? Don't you yourself have any sort of standards for which you use to believe something yourself? How are you proving to yourself that it's the Coram knife? You have to prove it to yourself before putting over your case.
As I've already said Niko if I've misunderstood you then my apologies. Maybe you only think it could be the Coram knife. I can believe that. I might think the same. But I certianly wouldn't think THIS IS the Coram knife. I have no proof.

Well after criticising your long posts I've done the same. Oops. I took the time to write it as, like others, I want to hear more on the Kosminski connection.

[niko]

Pleasre forgive my gammer.

I don't know about anybody else but I hate it when I'm intrigued by a thread but end up not reading it because of the way the posts are written.

Niko - I have been through all 6 pages of this thread but as soon as I reach a post from you which is longer than about 10 lines I skip it.
One thing that would help is better grammar. I appreciate English might not be you mother tongue. But I'm sure all(?) languages have basic grammar with paragraphs, capitals, periods, commas etc.
But more importantly than grammar Niko is simply the length of some of the posts. It's as though you type what is in your head instead of thinking about what you want to say first and then typing that down in the most concise way possible. People don't like being bombarded with walls of text. It's just too much to process particularly when the reader has to deal with bad grammar.
This is just some constructive criticism. Your not the first or the last person who types as they think. Just try to take my advice.

What does annoy me a little in your posts, and maybe I'm wrong as like I said I haven't read all of them, is that I get the impression that you are making the same mistake that's made by many books on the Ripper. That is where the author (eg Patricia Cornwell) decides that their suspect (Sickert) was the Ripper and then tries to show why they are correct. And that approach always fails.
Putting the example into context I get the impression that you believe your knife to be the Coram knife and now you're trying to show why you're correct. If I've misunderstood you then my apologies. But if that is what you're doing surely you must be able to understand that it's not the way to go about it.

You have a knife. If I was in your shoes then I might think to myself something like 'wasn't the Coram knife found in similar conditions tied up in a cloth.' But that's about it.
Now going back to the Cornwell example it seems she looked at a photo of Sickert as an old man and that was her moment. She was convinced he was the Ripper. Case Closed. Now seriously I ask you how can she expect other people to believe her. There's no proof in her book.
So if you do believe you have the Coram knife then after my Cornwell example can you appreciate why people wouldn't believe you? Don't you yourself have any sort of standards for which you use to believe something yourself? How are you proving to yourself that it's the Coram knife? You have to prove it to yourself before putting over your case.
As I've already said Niko if I've misunderstood you then my apologies. Maybe you only think it could be the Coram knife. I can believe that. I might think the same. But I certianly wouldn't think THIS IS the Coram knife. I have no proof.

Well after criticising your long posts I've done the same. Oops. I took the time to write it as, like others, I want to hear more on the Kosminski connection.

Hi Ozzy,thanks for your post,one thing i respect from people is their honesty,and being transparent on what they say,like you. I ask forgiveness to everyone,i know my grammer is shite,"i know". I must addmit i was a bad scholar,i have not been to England for over twenty years. I do not speak English here were i live. My English has been silent for over twenty years.



I have just discovered how to split the lines to create a paragraph,ja ja ja,funny but true, i,m sorry for the length of my texts,their length in size,is the size i need to write reffering on what i want to say. Your getting me worried now,because what i have got to say about the Kozminski possible connection is also of long texts. I prefer on sending one long post instead of three short ones.


Some time before unburing the knife in the arch, iwitnessed a group of police officers searching the metioned arch. I witnessed how they were searching the arch floor with metal detectors. This was on a Sunday morning. I have tried to find out about that investigation,but no luck seems impossible. I remember asking the constable guarding the arch gate,what were they doing? he replied "were investigating a murder". As i recall there had not been any recent murders at the time,or recentlyin the area before,i do recall some murders in the area,but about ten years after the police had searched the arch with METAL DETECTORS, see its happening again another long text. I repeat i am sorry about my grammer. I also speak Basque and Spanish and my grammer is terrible,i also speak a little Greek,but do not write it. But thank God this does not enable me to communicate with others.A 97 year old Basque woman told me "animals dont talk but they understand each other, men talk but they do not understand each other". Any way Ozzy everyone is free to choose, if you think a text is not worth reading your free to skip it,thanks again for your honesty.How many people do you think would like to write in English as bad as i do?. Anotjher thing i do think the knife is connected to Kozminski,but i also think that Kozminski did not commit the Whitechapel murders. All the best .Agur.

[niko]

Why is there nothing written inside the newspaper ?

Hello to everyone, i was looking through the boards, and came across a thread about the ILLUSTRATED POLICE NEWS. Explaining how it began, where and when. It says that the ILLUSTRATED POLICE NEWS was a newspaper which on it,s front page would have illustrated sketches with catchy headlines.

It also mentions, that every sketch on the front page would have a whole column written inside the newspaper. " I totally agree on this ", as i have five different copies of the ILLUSTRATED POLICE NEWS, of different dates surounding the Whitechapel murders.


Out of the five ILLUSTRATED POLICE NEWS i have, i can confirm that all the illustrated sketches on all the front pages of the five newspapers, have all got a whole column written inside the newspaper regarding the illustrated sketches from the front page,s.


" EXCEPT FOR ONE ILLUSTRATED SKETCH". On the front page of the ILLUSTRATED POLICE NEWS, printed on Saturday,20, October, 1888, of a man bending down to pick up a knife. The headline says, Finding a blood-stained knife, Whitechapel, Rd, knife 12 inches long.


There is also a sketch about some bloodhounds, but there is a whole column about it written inside the newspaper. Like there is also a column written of the sketch of the Whitehall mystery, also on the same front page.


Can someone please help me to understand a plausable reason, why the sketch of the finding of the Thomas Coram knife, did not have a column written in the inside of the newspaper, like the others do. " Were they holding information back from the East End community" ? I know that the Londoner,s who red THE DAILY TELEGRAPH would have known about the finding of the twelve inch knife found along the Whitechapel Road. As it had been mentioned in the DAILY TELEGRAPH printed on the 4, October, 1888.


I supose THE DAILY TELEGRAPH was not the newspaper commonly red by common Eastenders. From what i understand the newspaper which covered the Whitechapel murders and was more commonly red by common Eastendes was THE ILLUSTRATED POLCE newspaper. I repeat were they trying to hold back information about the finding of the knife from the East End community? "ok then mates" all the best.Agur.

[niko]

Little is written about Corams knife in the 1888 newspapers.

Hi everyone, there is little written about the knife found along the Whitechapel Road in the 1888 newspapers at the time of the murders. This are some newspaper articles, that I have just found, they are new to me, I supose the majority of the forum members have all ready read them.


DAILY NEWS United Kingdom 4 October 1888.

Thomas Coran a lad of 67, Plumers-Row, Comercial Road said- On Sunday night last, at about 12.30, I was coming away from a friends at No 6 Bath Gardens, Brady Street. I walked down Grain-Street towards Whitechapel Road. In front of No 253, Whitechapel Road, towards Aldgate, I saw a knife lying on the bottom door step. There is a laundry a 253.

The knife produced is the one i found. (The knife has a long narrow blade, some what worn, a strong wooden handle, and is heavily stained with blood. It is like the knives used in a butchers shop) The blood stained hankerchief produced was wraped a long the handle........... it then goes on to the part with P C Drage. " In this article the knife is discribed as a BUTCHERS knife".

EVENING NEWS London, United Kingdom, 1 October 1888.

A KNIFE FOUND IN WHITECHAPEL ROAD.


Early this morning a Police-Constable was passing pn his beat in the Whitechapel Road, when he came upon a black handled knife, keen as a razor, and pointed like a carving knife. The blade was ten inches long, about the length of weapon assumed by Dr. Phillps to have been used in the Handbury-Street murderer. It is looked upon the Police as supplying a link n the " man from Southampton arrest".

To me this is an interesting article about the Coram or Coran knife, as I think this is one of the first reports, if not the first report given out to the public about the finding of the blood-stained knife. I clearly understand that the blade is discribed as POINTED like a CARVING KNIFE, here there is nothing mentioned of a bakers knife or a round pointed (ended) knife. " The knife I have has a black wooden handle "


I include this article because it makes me think," a 123 years later and theories rather than facts "


IRISH TIMES Dublin, Ireland, Thursday 4 October 1888.


Theories rather than facts continue to predominate inconnection with the East End murders, save that a knife with a bloodstained hankerchief is reported to have been found on a door step it the Whitechapel Road. As yet it is hardly known wether this might turn out to be a hoax..........



This is the last newspaper report, I find this one interesting us in an other version of this report, the knife is discribed as a Bakers knife or a butchers knife.

DAILY NEWS United Kingdom, 6 October 1888.

THE RESUMED INQUEST, IMPORTANT EVIDENCE.

Dr Phillips continueing his evidence said............ The knife that was produced on the last occasion was delivered to me properly secured by Police Constable 282 H. On examination I found it to be such a knife to be used in a chandler shop, and is called a slicing knife. It has blood upon it, which charateristics of the blood of a warm blooded animal. It has been recently blunted, and its edge turned by apparently rubbing on a stone such as a kerbstone. It evidently before was a very sharp knife, such a knife could have produced the incision and injuries to the neck.........


Reading this newspaper reports reports , strengthen my believes in the knife I poses is the knife Thomas Coram found. I do not disbelieve that the knife found along the Whitechpel Road could have been used by Jack the ripper, I wonder if the JTR files that the Special Branch is protecting at all cost " i wonder why?" has somthing interesting to tell about the Thomas Coram knife, ok mates sorry to bore you all, all the best,Agur.

[niko]

The words of a CORONER..

Hi everyone, I supose the words of a CORONER can be TRUSTED.

Thomas Coram said- I live at 67, Plummers-road Mile End, and am employed at cocanut warehouse. On Sunday night I was coming from a friend a 16, Bath gardens, Brady-street. I was walking on the right hand side of Whitechapel-road towards Aldgate, when opposite No. 253 I crossed over, a saw a knife lying on the door step. No 252 was a laundry business, and there were two steps leading to the front door. I found the knife on the bottom step. This is the knife I found (witness being shown a long bladed knife) The hankerchief produced was wraped round the handle. It was folded,and then twisted around the handle. The hankerchief was blood-stained. I did not touch them. A Policeman came towards me, and I called his attention to them.

The CORONER- The blade of the knife is dagger-shaped and it sharpened on one side. The blade is about 9in. or 10in. long I should say.

The WITNESS- The Policeman took the kinfe to Leman-street Police-station, and I went with him.

The CORONER- Were there many people passing at the time?

The WITNESS- I should think I passed about a dozen people between Brady-street and where I found the knife.

The CORONER- Could it be easily seen?

The WITNESS- Yes, and it was light.

The CORONER- Did you pass a Policeman before you got to the spot?

The WITNESS- Yes I passed three, It was about half-past 12 at night.


Here the CORONER clearly discribes the knife as being DAGGER SHAPED and being 9in. or 10in. long. " I wonder what length it really was,shame they did not measure the kmife". I believe the 9in or 10in. he refers to the length of the blade, If he refers to the whole knife being 9in. or 10in long, In my eyes this would not be a long bladed knife, but a knife being little longer than a table steak knife. Remember this are the WORDS OF A CORONER and noted down by a TIMES repoter.

I can imagine Elizabeth Strides inquest, with reporters from well known British newspapers, sitting in a reserved section of the hall, writting down in their note-books all that was said and shown as EVIDENCE.

There is little difference in what the different newspaper reporters write aboutThomas Coram. BUT, there is much difference in the discription of the knife found by Coram, " strangly but true ". I have found other reports in other not so popular British newspapers, but they just seem to be copied from what was written in the MIAN BRITISH NEWSPAPERS.


I take this opportunity to ask the forum members, what information there is about SHADWELL POLICE STATION, ( you know, when was it built, and if it was active in 1888 ) I have found a photo of the Police station from 1902, but nothing else. Another thing, the Scotland yard " Jack the ripper files " I thought they had been destroyed, until this week. They must be protecting somthing more important than the INFORMANTS NAMES and ADDRESSES. I think this obstacle can be over comed by eraseing the NAMES and ADDRESSES before the files become open to the public, or are they really protecting " A BIG FISH "


I could use my imagination and say that " There protecting the files as it contians information about the HOLY GRAIL " Ha, Ha, or maybe " There waiting for the so long waited ANTI CHRIST to come and read them " Ha,Ha,Ha.


NOW, why did an East End " scullywag " like me find a burried FRENCH COOKS SABATIER KNIFE, which was in circulation in 1888, and believe to be involved in Jack the ripper, the Whitechapel murders doing in all this. Im really starting to wish I did,nt find this dam knife, as it is starting to wind me up.


This is another photograph of the knife I found, ofcourse the blade looks 9in. or 10in long, but if you measure it, the true length of the blade is 11.8 inches long, and surely is a LONG BLADED KNIFE. All the best, Agur.

[niko]

This is the knife.

Sorry could not attach photo,I,ll try again,

[niko]

This is the knife .

This is the third try at attaching photo, doing everything right like Rob told me, do,nt understand.

[The Bounder]

If the police were searching the arch way with metal detectors because of a murder it might be that you have removed evidence from a scene, it might have been that the murder happened in a different area or happened some years before and the police were acting off new information as to where the knife was buried.

I know there is little you can do about this now Niko but this might give some explanation as to why the police where there searching with metal detectors and not a conspiracy related to the Ripper murders.