Why those particular victims?

[Cogidubnus]

lifting the latch or not?

Hi Jon,

Would an LVP killer, possibly desperate after a month's break, bother to make such a distinction, or would he perhaps simply see a suddenly offered favour (whichever way it was delivered) as an opportunity?

Moreover, how much would he feel suddenly empowered, and how might this affect his "performance".

No ulterior motive...just something that's bugging me following your post...

All the best

Dave

[Wickerman]

The idea the killer lifted the latch suggests burglary or B & E, which is not consistent with the M.O. of the previous murders.
These M.O.'s are like chalk & cheese, oil & water, they couldn't be more different. If it happened that way then it wasn't Jacky Boy who killed Mary - and that's a tough sell.
When the Yorkshire Ripper murdered his only "indoor" victim it was not because he broke into her apartment, he was invited in.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Rocky

I guess perhaps the door was a spring lock that locked on it's one from reading the old threads....

Yes, all the evidence suggests the lock was some kind of spring lock...but with many of these, they only lock if only if a latch pin is released... otherwise the door remains closed by a "catch" but not fully locked...it's possible she was so drunk she went to sleep before releasing the latch and locking the door...perhaps the killer dropped the latch as he left...

But I'm sure someone else here is more expert on LVP spring locks than I and can elucidate...

All the best

Dave

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Sir John

not sure he had enough time to get the heart of his other victims. Plus going through the sternum with a knife is something else entirely.

Is it possible perhaps that the killer discovered this in using a larger blade on one particular Martha Tabram wound? But then never had a realistic opportunity to explore an alternative route until MJK?

Just a thought, inspired by Tom's excellent book...

All the best

Dave

[Rosella]

In that case, why couldn't the killer have reached through the broken window to the spring lock to let himself in while Mary was sleeping and after her last client had left? The fact that Mary routinely opened her door like that might have become known to some of her regulars.

[RockySullivan]

I doubt mary just happened to find the key the night she was murdered while she was apparently drunk that night. Much more likely the Ripper was in possession of Mary Kelly's key...whether he'd stolen it at an earlier date or he had a copy (McCarthey, Barnett).

I guess perhaps the door was a spring lock that locked on it's one from reading the old threads....

[RockySullivan]

I am not sure what we can conclude from that since it is possible that Mary found the missing key and had it visible in her room and the killer simply picked it up.

Sorry but I have to go now.

c.d.

I doubt mary just happened to find the key the night she was murdered while she was apparently drunk that night. Much more likely the Ripper was in possession of Mary Kelly's key...whether he'd stolen it at an earlier date or he had a copy (McCarthey, Barnett).

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Hello Rocky,

It seems to me that you could also reach a similar conclusion with regard to Kate. That is that her killer new her as well. Extensive mutilations including her face.

As for the significance of Mary's heart being taken, it simply could be that he had already acquired other organs and wanted to add something he did not have to his collection. It could also be that he fled in a hurry and simply grabbed something as a souvenir. The heart as a symbol of love is one thing, but as Sam Flynn put it, an actual slimy, bloody, smelly heart is quite another. I think way too much is being read into the whole heart thing.

c.d.

not sure he had enough time to get the heart of his other victims. Plus going through the sternum with a knife is something else entirely.

He could have taken her heart because he felt he had the time.

[c.d.]

I am not sure what we can conclude from that since it is possible that Mary found the missing key and had it visible in her room and the killer simply picked it up.

Sorry but I have to go now.

c.d.

[RockySullivan]

How do we know that her killer had a key? I think it much more likely that Mary let him in.

c.d.

Because the door was locked from the outside. Mary could have let him in...but he locked the door behind him when he left. And from what I remember...Mary hadn't had a key for a while because she was using the broken window to open the door, experts: is this correct? That mary didnt have a key?..And yet the killer must have had a key to lock the door from the outside

[c.d.]

How do we know that her killer had a key? I think it much more likely that Mary let him in.

c.d.

[RockySullivan]

Hello Rocky,

It seems to me that you could also reach a similar conclusion with regard to Kate. That is that her killer new her as well. Extensive mutilations including her face.

As for the significance of Mary's heart being taken, it simply could be that he had already acquired other organs and wanted to add something he did not have to his collection. It could also be that he fled in a hurry and simply grabbed something as a souvenir. The heart as a symbol of love is one thing, but as Sam Flynn put it, an actual slimy, bloody, smelly heart is quite another. I think way too much is being read into the whole heart thing.

c.d.

True true....still I think circumstances of the murder are most significant . That Kelly was in bed when she was killed and the fact that the door was locked from outside meant the killer had the key. Hadn't Mary lost her key and was opening the door thru the window? If so how did the killer have a key?

[c.d.]

Hello Rocky,

It seems to me that you could also reach a similar conclusion with regard to Kate. That is that her killer new her as well. Extensive mutilations including her face.

As for the significance of Mary's heart being taken, it simply could be that he had already acquired other organs and wanted to add something he did not have to his collection. It could also be that he fled in a hurry and simply grabbed something as a souvenir. The heart as a symbol of love is one thing, but as Sam Flynn put it, an actual slimy, bloody, smelly heart is quite another. I think way too much is being read into the whole heart thing.

c.d.

[RockySullivan]

I still don't get the rationale for concluding that the face slashing in some way indicated a personal connection between Mary and her killer. The face is part of the body is it not? It is not like he had to go to great lengths to cut her face. If you have a killer that likes to cut a woman is it really so shocking that he cut her face? There is only so much flesh on a human body. I think we are much better off seeing it in light of George Mallory's famous quote..."because it's there." No other explanation no matter how tantalizing is needed.

c.d.

I don't think it's the face slashing alone that indicates Kelly knew her killer. It's more the circumstances of the murder and the likely hood that mary was in her room with killer in her bed. It seems she trusted the killer. Also the extensive violence and because the killer took Mary's heart with him are better indications he knew her then just the face slashing alone.

[c.d.]

I still don't get the rationale for concluding that the face slashing in some way indicated a personal connection between Mary and her killer. The face is part of the body is it not? It is not like he had to go to great lengths to cut her face. If you have a killer that likes to cut a woman is it really so shocking that he cut her face? There is only so much flesh on a human body. I think we are much better off seeing it in light of George Mallory's famous quote..."because it's there." No other explanation no matter how tantalizing is needed.

c.d.