Did The Ripper Remove Organs?

[Trevor Marriott]

It’s an important question Jon.

At the inquest Dr Brown said: ”Before we removed the body Dr. Phillips was sent for, as I wished him to see the wounds, he having been engaged in a case of a similar kind previously. He saw the body at the mortuary.”.

But there was no proper examination of the body at the crime scene if there had been, I have no doubt the organs would have been found missing if the killer had taken them, and it would have been documented, and we have no time for Dr Phillips viewing the body at the mortuary.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Barnaby]

So far the votes are unanimous that the killer took the organs, and I agree with this. However, Trevor Marriott presents an interesting theory worthy of consideration and not immediate dismissal. I like the originality of the theory and concede it is certainly possible that organs were stolen from the mortuary. It's a good theory. I just find it more probable they were removed by the killer. Whatever his time constraints, the killer had the time to remove the intestines of Chapman and Eddowes and place them above their shoulders. It's not a big leap from there to suggest he had the time to take an organ. In addition, Kelly's heart was noted absent while her body was at the crime scene.

A good theory even if ultimately falsified generates new questions. As Tom Wescott points out, maybe Trevor is on to something about errors in the conventional timeline, particularly for Eddowes. This raises lots of things to investigate. The theory has now done its job to advance our knowledge of the case, even if it is incorrect.

[GBinOz]

Hello Gbinoz

I am not sure which question you’re talking about, something discussed in this thread or the nurse’s opinion.
The posts I referred to were you posting an opinion from a nurse experienced in modern-day hysterectomies that removing the uterus without damaging surrounding organs in the (as far as I know unspecified) time slot available, was impossible.
The problem is that there actually was damage to surrounding organs. So the nurse’s opinion is of zero value. This is besides the “hysterectomy “ - of course it was nothing of the kind, making the comparison moot - performed on Eddowes hardly conforming to modern, somewhat less intrusive methods than those employed by JtR.

Hi Kattrup,

Just by way of clarification, the question was posed to the nurse and was: could an abdominal hysterectomy be performed on a subject laying on the ground in near darkness in nine minutes without damaging the bladder. Damage to surrounding organs was not part of the question. So it is your problem with the question that is of zero value, not the answer. The nurse commented that the bladder is in the way of an abdominal hysterectomy, and that she had observed surgeons of high repute, operating in a modern theatre with full lighting and assistance and far more time than nine minutes, nick the bladder. Brown's "expert practitioner" nicked the bladder in his operation, of which the extent and conditions are unknown. The person who removed Eddowes uterus didn't.

IF Lawende did see Eddowes, the nine minutes available to the ripper had to also include taking her into Mitre Sq, subduing her, opening her clothing, making an incision which skirted around the navel, removing her intestines, performing the hysterectomy without nicking the bladder, removing a section of colon to give access to the kidney, removing the kidney, making the delicate cuts to her eyelids, rifling her possessions and making his escape.

I don't see nine minutes as a realistic time, but clock syncs have to be taken into account and considerations such as whether Watkins might have gotten behind on his beat by sheltering from the rain and decided to make up the time by skipping Mitre Sq, or Trevor's solution.

[Jon Guy]

Well the bodies were left at the mortuaries for up to 10 hours before the post-mortems were carried out, so plenty of time

The term organ thief is probably not the right terminology, body dealers is the correct term used who it is documented were active at mortuaries in the East End at that time. They operated along with corrupt mortuary attendants so easy access to bodies

For further reading, Professor Elizabeth Hurren a lecturer at Leicester, has published several books on the activities of Victorian Body Dealers

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Thanks Trev, I`m not doubting the existence of body dealers. I just can`t see when someone would have the opportunity to get at the bodies.
For example, Chapman was taken to the mortuary at 7am and the post mortem was at 2pm. Robert Mann stayed with the body until the two nurses come in to undress the body prior to the post mortem. There was no window of opportunity.

Eddowes was taken to Golden Lane Mortuary at 3am, which was a relatively new building, had a coroners court attached to the mortuary and was a secure building. The post mortem was at 4.30pm. Between 3am and 4.30pm Eddowes was stripped, photographed, the body is sketched, apron pieces are compared. When and how did someone get access to the body ?

[GBinOz]

Thanks Trev, I`m not doubting the existence of body dealers. I just can`t see when someone would have the opportunity to get at the bodies.
For example, Chapman was taken to the mortuary at 7am and the post mortem was at 2pm. Robert Mann stayed with the body until the two nurses come in to undress the body prior to the post mortem. There was no window of opportunity.

From the Chapman Inquest:

Sergeant Baugham [Badham], 31 H, stated that he conveyed the body of the deceased to the mortuary on the ambulance.
[Coroner] Are you sure that you took every portion of the body away with you? - Yes.
[Coroner] Where did you deposit the body? - In the shed, still on the ambulance. I remained with it until Inspector Chandler arrived. Detective-Sergeant Thicke viewed the body, and I took down the description.

Inspector Chandler, recalled, said he reached the mortuary a few minutes after seven. The body did not appear to have been disturbed. He did not stay until the doctor arrived. Police-constable 376 H was left in charge, with the mortuary keeper. Robert Marne, the mortuary keeper and an inmate of the Whitechapel Union Workhouse, said he received the body at seven o'clock on Saturday morning. He remained at the mortuary until Dr. Phillips came. The door of the mortuary was locked except when two nurses from an infirmary came and undressed the body. No one else touched the corpse. He gave the key into the hands of the police.

Also from the Chapman inquest:

Sarah Simonds, a resident nurse at the Whitechapel Infirmary, stated that, in company of the senior nurse, she went to the mortuary on Saturday, and found the body of the deceased on the ambulance in the yard. It was afterwards taken into the shed, and placed on the table.

[GBinOz]

For those who find Prosector's 72 page thread somewhat daunting, there are some interesting comments regarding that thread made by Wickerman in Post #2 here:

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/motive-method-and-madness/758772-someone-with-medical-knowledge

[Trevor Marriott]

Thanks Trev, I`m not doubting the existence of body dealers. I just can`t see when someone would have the opportunity to get at the bodies.
For example, Chapman was taken to the mortuary at 7am and the post mortem was at 2pm. Robert Mann stayed with the body until the two nurses come in to undress the body prior to the post mortem. There was no window of opportunity.

Eddowes was taken to Golden Lane Mortuary at 3am, which was a relatively new building, had a coroners court attached to the mortuary and was a secure building. The post mortem was at 4.30pm. Between 3am and 4.30pm Eddowes was stripped, photographed, the body is sketched, apron pieces are compared. When and how did someone get access to the body

Hi Jon
If the body dealers were working with a corrupt mortuary attendant, then they could have been given access to the mortuary at any time of the day or night by the mortuary attendant. If it is suggested that the killer took the organs in such a short time,I have to ask how long would it have taken a body dealer to access a victims abdomen which had already been opened up by the killer and remove organs.

With regards to Chapman not only was the uterus taken but the fallopian tubes which were attached to the uterus, In the pics I have posted the fallopian tubes are highlighted and would be difficult to find and remove in the dark.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[The Rookie Detective]

So...Did the Ripper have a full 15 minutes alone in the square to 'work'?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

No chance.


The key attribute that the killer displayed... speed!


The Ripper wouldn't have stayed in that square for more than 7 minutes...at a push.


He liked risk...but he wasn't stupid.


Stupid killers get caught.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Jon
If the body dealers were working with a corrupt mortuary attendant, then they could have been given access to the mortuary at any time of the day or night by the mortuary attendant. If it is suggested that the killer took the organs in such a short time,I have to ask how long would it have taken a body dealer to access a victims abdomen which had already been opened up by the killer and remove organs.

With regards to Chapman not only was the uterus taken but the fallopian tubes which were attached to the uterus, In the pics I have posted the fallopian tubes are highlighted and would be difficult to find and remove in the dark.

Hi Trev

I can`t buy into this theory, sorry.
Yes, I guess there were corrupt mortuary keepers about but there wasn`t an opportunity in the short time before the post mortems, in both cases, never mind any time of day and night. Both post mortems were on the same day as the murder.
There is just nothing to suggest it happened as you suggest. Claiming there wasn`t enough time for the killer to perform all the mutilations is wrong.

[Herlock Sholmes]

But there was no proper examination of the body at the crime scene if there had been, I have no doubt the organs would have been found missing if the killer had taken them, and it would have been documented, and we have no time for Dr Phillips viewing the body at the mortuary.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

It makes no difference what time Phillips viewed the body at the mortuary. All that matters is that he did.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Jon
If the body dealers were working with a corrupt mortuary attendant, then they could have been given access to the mortuary at any time of the day or night by the mortuary attendant. If it is suggested that the killer took the organs in such a short time,I have to ask how long would it have taken a body dealer to access a victims abdomen which had already been opened up by the killer and remove organs.

With regards to Chapman not only was the uterus taken but the fallopian tubes which were attached to the uterus, In the pics I have posted the fallopian tubes are highlighted and would be difficult to find and remove in the dark.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Why do you keep talking about body dealers and how they could have had access to the body Trevor but you avoid the obvious question - why would they have taken body parts before a post mortem had occurred when that would have had to have been their usual MO? Why did they, according to you, act in such a mad rush, utterly careless of the huge risks that would have been obvious to a child, in doing this? How could they possibly have known that Phillips or Bond hadn’t noticed the presence of the uterus when looking at the body in the mortuary (as they undoubtedly did)? Why would they have ignored this? Why try stealing from such a high profile corpse while there was a very real possibility of police and doctors returning?

It doesn’t make the slightest sense because we know that it didn’t happen.

19-0 btw. (I’m assuming 19 idiots Trevor?)

[Herlock Sholmes]

Did the killer have enough time to remove organs? Yes because that’s what happened.

[Cody75111]

Hi

Two things, I think, that are worth considering.

1. Catherine Eddowes was not a TARDIS. She was a small thin woman. The idea that her killer could not accidentally come across one of her kidneys with a few rips and a grab is a bit difficult to believe.

2. Five minutes is a short amount of time. But it is not that short. I invite anyone who has not done this before to set an alarm for five minutes time and then sit and imagine the killer's actions that night with Catherine Eddowes, based on the evidence. When I try this myself I usually come in at just under 4 minutes. That's from the Lawende sighting to the killer's exit from Mitre Square with the organs. I could maybe add another couple of minutes for things unknowingly unconsidered Your mileage may vary as people like to say now...

[Abby Normal]

yes trevors theory got me thinking. there were reports of an american dr trying to get uteri. maybe tumblety hooked up with the suspect chapman being in similar professions and had him procure the body parts.

now theres a theory!

[Geddy2112]

For Trevor's theory to be correct surely the organs were stolen for a reason - research, money etc. If that is the case then surely this was a rather poor business model, we only have a small number of murders where it could have happened. Also how did the thieves KNOW when Jack would strike to take advantage of the opened abdomens? Was Jack part of the organ stealing gang and if so why did he not just steal the organs himself?