Did The Ripper Remove Organs?

[Trevor Marriott]

So according to you when a doctor examines a body in a mortuary he reports his findings to the mortuary attendant?!!!

Perhaps he then goes across the road and tells the guy selling fruit and veg?

Oh you are so funny, you need to calm down and give your brain a chance

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

I have a firm grip on this topic, it's you who is out with the fairies

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So according to you when a doctor examines a body in a mortuary he reports his findings to the mortuary attendant?!!!

Perhaps he then goes across the road and tells the guy selling fruit and veg?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Might this be the timeline that you are looking for:
Cris Malone Post #4

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-medical-men-inquest-doctor-reports/dr-bagster-phillips/15789-george-bagster-phillips-in-retrospect

According to Cris, Phillips arrived at the Golden Gate mortuary after 5:20am, and was able to attend both autopsies because the Stride autopsy was postponed until the next day....not omnipresent to the slightest degree.

Just to briefly revisit the Chapman events, it appears that the clerk to the Board of Guardians instructed 2 nurses to strip and wash the body. Phillips was incensed as this was not the usual practice. Mann left the shed, thus providing himself with an alibi, and PC376H stood outside the locked door with the key in his hand while the other three had free reign inside the shed. I regard this as suspicious.

You are of the opinion that any organ thief would not have known what the doctor saw at the scene of the crime. But they would have known that noticing a uterus and a kidney missing from a torn up body would require more than a perfunctory look at the wounds, and they knew that was all that was done at the crime scene.

Cheers, George

Hi George,

I'm currently on my way down to London so I'll have a look later when I'm not on my phone.

I just had a quick look but that's not the one that I've seen. The one that I've seen is definitely on Casebook. If Jon Menges sees these posts he may be able to track it down. If not I'll have another look later

[GBinOz]

I was too late to edit post #164.

As George has said - there’s some things that don’t add up. There is a timeline on here somewhere. I’m in London for the next 4 days so I don’t know how much time I’ll have but this needs to be looked at.

Hi Herlock,

Might this be the timeline that you are looking for:
Cris Malone Post #4

https://www.jtrforums.com/forum/the-medical-men-inquest-doctor-reports/dr-bagster-phillips/15789-george-bagster-phillips-in-retrospect

According to Cris, Phillips arrived at the Golden Gate mortuary after 5:20am, and was able to attend both autopsies because the Stride autopsy was postponed until the next day....not omnipresent to the slightest degree.

Just to briefly revisit the Chapman events, it appears that the clerk to the Board of Guardians instructed 2 nurses to strip and wash the body. Phillips was incensed as this was not the usual practice. Mann left the shed, thus providing himself with an alibi, and PC376H stood outside the locked door with the key in his hand while the other three had free reign inside the shed. I regard this as suspicious.

You are of the opinion that any organ thief would not have known what the doctor saw at the scene of the crime. But they would have known that noticing a uterus and a kidney missing from a torn up body would require more than a perfunctory look at the wounds, and they knew that was all that was done at the crime scene.

Cheers, George

[Trevor Marriott]

And for the 2,147th time it doesn’t matter that he didn’t mention seeing any organs missing. The point is…..

your mythical organ thieves couldn’t have known that he hadn’t seen them!!!!!!!

Of course they would have known if the mortuary attendant was corrupt

Therefore they we’re taking organs after he might very possibly have seen them….unless you are suggesting that Phillips would have left a note for them: “to any potential organ thieves…I haven’t checked for the presence of organs so you are free to take whatever you want and no one will be any the wiser.”

Get a grip Trevor.

I have a firm grip on this topic, it's you who is out with the fairies

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Btw 23-0

[Herlock Sholmes]

It doesnt matter when he saw the body, he still made no comment about organs being taken by the killer.

The Telegraph tells us that he had not arrived at the mortuary by 5.20am

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And for the 2,147th time it doesn’t matter that he didn’t mention seeing any organs missing. The point is…..

your mythical organ thieves couldn’t have known that he hadn’t seen them!!!!!!!

Therefore they we’re taking organs after he might very possibly have seen them….unless you are suggesting that Phillips would have left a note for them: “to any potential organ thieves…I haven’t checked for the presence of organs so you are free to take whatever you want and no one will be any the wiser.”

Get a grip Trevor.

[Trevor Marriott]

George’s point about a problematic timeline (albeit the Chapman one) made me look again at the Eddowes timeline. I used The Telegraph and The Times versions:


1.44 - The body is found by PC Watkins.

He informs George Morris who he sends for help.

Morris runs into PC’s Harvey and Holland who return with him to Mitre Square.

Holland is sent by Watkins for Dr. Sequiera.


1.55 - Dr. Sequiera arrived in Mitre Square.


1.55 - Inspector Collard is told about the murder at Bishopsgate Station. He telegraphed headquarters and then sent a PC to fetch Dr. Brown.


1.58 - DC. Halse is on duty near Aldgate Church with detectives Outram and Marriott when they hear of the murder. All three run to Mitre Square. On arrival he gives orders for a search and he himself goes to Wentworth Street via Middlesex Street.


2.00 (shortly after, according to Brown) - Dr. Brown is informed about the murder in Mitre Square.


2.02/2.03 - Collard arrived in Mitre Square. Sequiera is already there with 2 or 3 police officers also present.


2.18/2.20 - Dr. Brown arrived in Mitre Square.


According to Collard the doctors stayed with the body until the ambulance arrived and saw it placed on it. It was taken to the mortuary and stripped, in the presence of Brown, Sequiera and Collard by the mortuary keeper, Mr. Davis.

Before the body is removed Dr. Brown sends for Dr. Phillips as he wants him to look at the injuries. He said that Phillips saw the body “..in the mortuary” but he doesn’t say at what time and he doesn’t say “at the post mortem.”


2.20 - DC. Halse passes along Goulston Street as part of his search. Then it’s on to Mitre Square before going to the mortuary. When he arrives at the mortuary the body is there and he sees that there is a portion of the victims apron missing. Halse then said that he accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre Square (this must mean that Major Smith was also at the mortuary?) where they learned about Long finding the apron.


2.55 - PC. Long finds the apron and sees the chalked message in Goulston Street. He checked the staircase and the building and then takes the apron to Commercial Road Station and reports to the duty Inspector.


5.00 - PC. Long returned to Goulston Street.


5.30 (approx) - Long sees the chalked message erased.


2.30 (pm)- Brown begins the Eddowes post mortem at Golden Lane Mortuary.


3.00 (pm) - Dr. Phillips begins the post mortem on Liz Stride at St. George’s mortuary.



Questions/Points


If Phillips was performing the PM on Stride then he couldn’t have attended the Eddowes PM as stated by Trevor. Therefore he must have seen Eddowes body at the mortuary before the PM.


Dr. Brown said: “I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street.” So it appears that Dr. Phillips presented the apron piece to Brown. We know that Long presented the apron at Commercial Road Station at some point (but not long) after 3.00.

It doesnt matter when he saw the body, he still made no comment about organs being taken by the killer.

The Telegraph tells us that he had not arrived at the mortuary by 5.20am

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

George’s point about a problematic timeline (albeit the Chapman one) made me look again at the Eddowes timeline. I used The Telegraph and The Times versions:


1.44 - The body is found by PC Watkins.

He informs George Morris who he sends for help.

Morris runs into PC’s Harvey and Holland who return with him to Mitre Square.

Holland is sent by Watkins for Dr. Sequiera.


1.55 - Dr. Sequiera arrived in Mitre Square.


1.55 - Inspector Collard is told about the murder at Bishopsgate Station. He telegraphed headquarters and then sent a PC to fetch Dr. Brown.


1.58 - DC. Halse is on duty near Aldgate Church with detectives Outram and Marriott when they hear of the murder. All three run to Mitre Square. On arrival he gives orders for a search and he himself goes to Wentworth Street via Middlesex Street.


2.00 (shortly after, according to Brown) - Dr. Brown is informed about the murder in Mitre Square.


2.02/2.03 - Collard arrived in Mitre Square. Sequiera is already there with 2 or 3 police officers also present.


2.18/2.20 - Dr. Brown arrived in Mitre Square.


According to Collard the doctors stayed with the body until the ambulance arrived and saw it placed on it. It was taken to the mortuary and stripped, in the presence of Brown, Sequiera and Collard by the mortuary keeper, Mr. Davis.

Before the body is removed Dr. Brown sends for Dr. Phillips as he wants him to look at the injuries. He said that Phillips saw the body “..in the mortuary” but he doesn’t say at what time and he doesn’t say “at the post mortem.”


2.20 - DC. Halse passes along Goulston Street as part of his search. Then it’s on to Mitre Square before going to the mortuary. When he arrives at the mortuary the body is there and he sees that there is a portion of the victims apron missing. Halse then said that he accompanied Major Smith back to Mitre Square (this must mean that Major Smith was also at the mortuary?) where they learned about Long finding the apron.


2.55 - PC. Long finds the apron and sees the chalked message in Goulston Street. He checked the staircase and the building and then takes the apron to Commercial Road Station and reports to the duty Inspector.


5.00 - PC. Long returned to Goulston Street.


5.30 (approx) - Long sees the chalked message erased.


2.30 (pm)- Brown begins the Eddowes post mortem at Golden Lane Mortuary.


3.00 (pm) - Dr. Phillips begins the post mortem on Liz Stride at St. George’s mortuary.



Questions/Points


If Phillips was performing the PM on Stride then he couldn’t have attended the Eddowes PM as stated by Trevor. Therefore he must have seen Eddowes body at the mortuary before the PM.


Dr. Brown said: “I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street.” So it appears that Dr. Phillips presented the apron piece to Brown. We know that Long presented the apron at Commercial Road Station at some point (but not long) after 3.00.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock.

PC Long took the apron to Commercial Street Station. Dr. Phillips was at Leman Street Station. How did Phillips get the apron?

Hi Jerry,

My apologies for missing your post.

He was called to Leman Street at 1.20 and sent on to Berner Street but I don’t know where he was between the time that he’d finished in Dutfield’s Yard and 3pm when he started the Stride PM? Long would have deposited the apron at Commercial Road Station not long after 3.00. So perhaps we can reasonably estimate sometime between 3.00 and 4.00?

If Brown sent a request for Phillips presence, as he said, sometime before the body was removed, couldn’t the person who told him have also told him about the apron? Perhaps he might have been asked to request that, on his way to the mortuary, Phillips collect the apron piece? Or could the officer sent to fetch him have been told to pick it up on his way to give to Phillips to take with him to the mortuary?

[Lewis C]

Thanks Trevor. Well in Nichols and Stride's cases he was clearly interrupted. In the case of Kelly it depends if you think it was a JtR killing and the heart was missing. How many murders or cases of organ theft are known in the 20 to 30 years around the turn of the century in the London area? If that can be established then surely that gives a strong indication on if there were organ thieves in operation.

Hi Geddy,

In Nichols' case, I would say that interruption may or may not be the reason why no organs were removed. Another possible explanation is that that was early in the series, and the killer had not yet escalated to the point of removing organs.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I was too late to edit post #164.

As George has said - there’s some things that don’t add up. There is a timeline on here somewhere. I’m in London for the next 4 days so I don’t know how much time I’ll have but this needs to be looked at.

[jerryd]

So…

We know that Long had taken the apron to the station.

We know that Phillips got the apron from the station to the mortuary.

Hi Herlock.

PC Long took the apron to Commercial Street Station. Dr. Phillips was at Leman Street Station. How did Phillips get the apron?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Question - Trevor, I believe that you’ve stated that Dr. Phillips was only at the mortuary for the Eddowes PM at around 2.30? My question is how could he have started the Stride PM at 3.00? Perhaps I’m getting times wrong?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Phillips didn't arrive till 2pm he was at Leman St Police station having dealt with the Stride murder

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Let’s look at this ‘statement of fact’ from you.

We can follow Inspector McWiliam’s actions from his report of October 27th.

He arrived at the detective department at 3.45am.

He was informed by Izzard what steps had been taken and then he wired Scotland Yard to inform them of Met about the murder - how long that took we don’t know but it could only have been a few minutes.

He then went with DS Downes first to Bishopsgate Station which can’t have been a long visit as he was heading to Mitre Square. He then went straight on to Mitre Square.

Inspector Collard was still in Mitre Square when he arrived (as was Major Smith, Superintendent Foster and some detective officers.)

Lawley and Hunt informed him about the apron and the chalk message. McWilliam ordered the message to be photographed and sent the two officers back to the Goulston Street to search the model dwellings and the local lodging houses.


So what time would you estimate that it was by this time Trevor? I’d estimate at sometime around 5am. Only a rough estimate of course.


So what did McWilliam do next?

”I then went to the Mortuary in Golden Lane, where the body had been taken by direction of Dr. Gordon-Brown and saw the piece of apron – which was found in Goulstone Street.”


And how had the piece of apron got to the mortuary?

Dr. Phillips took it there.

Brown : “I have seen a portion of an apron produced by Dr. Phillips and stated to have been found in Goulstone Street.”


So…

We know that Long had taken the apron to the station.

We know that Phillips got the apron from the station to the mortuary.

We know that the apron was in the mortuary when McWilliam arrived.

We can only estimate the time that McWilliam arrived at the station but I think that between 5 and 6 is reasonable.


Therefore, we know that Phillips was at the mortuary well before the PM