Facial Mutilations

[Harry D]

Hello Harry. Thanks.

What of Dr. Brown? My remarks are SOLELY about cutting skills.

Cheers.
LC

Low lighting, layers of clothing, time constraints. That's why the cutting was arguably messier than before. Next.

[Jon Guy]

I am sorry I dont

He wasn`t a Robert Mann type at all.

I don`t have my notes to hand but he was John Davis, and he and his wife lived next door to the mortuary. He was an old guy, who`d been there for years (possibly decades) - I think he is in the census for 1891.

But Robert Mann, he wasn`t (no disrespect to Mr Mann)
Even in Mann`s case, wasn`t there a Mr Edmunds who supervised him ?

I used to think Mr Edmunds was a corruption of Mr Mann, but Debs found a Mr Edmunds who had something to do with the Board of Guardians.

So, it wasn`t quite a case of tumbleweed rolling around these mortuaries.

[Debra A]

Yes we know that the bodies should not have been tampered with, but needs must when the devil calls, we were not there. If all that were there was a mortuary keeper like Robert Mann then anything is possible and a police officer stood outside. If you read up about the Anatomy Act you will see that yes, there were supposed to be regulations and records but it appears a lot of this fell by the wayside despite there being appointed Inspectors to monitor and enforce the regulations.

Do you not think it strange that the only two victims who had organs removed both had their abdomens ripped open to the degree that it would be easy to access the organs inside. All the other victims injuries were not as severe so it would have been almost impossible to remove organs from them without it being noticed.

Also we have those same two victims being taken to two different mortuaries. We know that every day there were medical personnel seeking out not only organs but bodies as well at the mortuaries.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

But, Trevor, I was asking specifically about your previous post where you suggest a medical man may have 'lawfully' taken the organs and asking if it 'lawful' to take them from a murder victim awaiting post mortem examination? You went on to suggest it may be the reason medical skill was shown in removal of some of the organs. Surely that is just about the most 'unlawful', (not to mention risky to the point of being moronic) , thing a medic at a mortuary could do?!

The situation you are describing in this post is the scenario of a lowly, medically untrained mortuary attendant like Mann doing it.
Those are two different situations.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor

Just out of interest, do you know who the Golden Lane equivalent of Mr Mann was, and his domestic situation?

I am sorry I dont

[Jon Guy]

. If all that were there was a mortuary keeper like Robert Mann then anything is possible

Hi Trevor

Just out of interest, do you know who the Golden Lane equivalent of Mr Mann was, and his domestic situation?

[Trevor Marriott]

How could a medic be seeking organs 'lawfully' in that scenario though, Trevor. Surely he would be tampering with the evidence in a murder case? i don't believe the police would be that lax with evidence like actual bodies?!
If it were lawful there would be paperwork giving him permission to remove organs, as the workhouse docs had to have too.

Yes we know that the bodies should not have been tampered with, but needs must when the devil calls, we were not there. If all that were there was a mortuary keeper like Robert Mann then anything is possible and a police officer stood outside. If you read up about the Anatomy Act you will see that yes, there were supposed to be regulations and records but it appears a lot of this fell by the wayside despite there being appointed Inspectors to monitor and enforce the regulations.

Do you not think it strange that the only two victims who had organs removed both had their abdomens ripped open to the degree that it would be easy to access the organs inside. All the other victims injuries were not as severe so it would have been almost impossible to remove organs from them without it being noticed.

Also we have those same two victims being taken to two different mortuaries. We know that every day there were medical personnel seeking out not only organs but bodies as well at the mortuaries.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

.... So with that in mind whose to say that the body was not tampered with by someone from the medical profession `lawfully` seeking organs for medical research. After all the abdomen was already ripped open so no need for anyone to spend time doing that.

How could a medic be seeking organs 'lawfully' in that scenario though, Trevor. Surely he would be tampering with the evidence in a murder case? i don't believe the police would be that lax with evidence like actual bodies?!
If it were lawful there would be paperwork giving him permission to remove organs, as the workhouse docs had to have too.

[Jon Guy]

Not so. Polly and Annie--by their own words--were soliciting.

Neither Nichols or Chapman said they were going to solicit.

[DJA]

So with that in mind whose to say that the body was not tampered with by someone from the medical profession `lawfully` seeking organs for medical research.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Do you suspect the Frankenstein family associated with 6 Fashion Street?

The only time I spent in a mortuary was a Saturday night/Sunday morning in 1967.
Cannot recall any nasty body smell.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi c.d.

It was one of those details that you read but never think to 'bookmark'.
The body was important evidence until the cause of death was officially established. After the end of the inquest, until the burial, I wouldn't know what procedures were followed.

Any theory that suggests the body was tempered with before the end of the inquest fails to acknowledge the importance of the body as evidence.

And any suggestion that rules out any other possibility without supporting evidence is fraught with danger. The simple fact is that what was supposed to happen and what did actually happen to the body is debatable. The body was left for almost 12 hours before they came back to do the post mortem.

During that time the mortuary and mortuary staff would have bo doubt continued their normal business. I doubt they would have closed the mortuary down for that 12 hour period. Dead bodies were still being brought there. So anything is possible.

If there was a guard left you can bet he would have been stood outside and not by the body. For those who have never been to an old mortuary there is a smell of death, which emanates around the mortuary so I can tell you from experience that no one would want to stand in one of those for very long. So with that in mind whose to say that the body was not tampered with by someone from the medical profession `lawfully` seeking organs for medical research. After all the abdomen was already ripped open so no need for anyone to spend time doing that.

This might explain the suggestion that some medical knowledge was used to remove the organs, and this may have taken only a few minutes. After all he would have had the proper instruments and would have had sufficient lighting, and would not have had to encounter a blood filled abdomen.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[lynn cates]

cutting remarks

Hello Harry. Thanks.

What of Dr. Brown? My remarks are SOLELY about cutting skills.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

Thanks. Always nice to put a win in the "Not losing my damn mind" column. There are enough losses as of late.

[Wickerman]

Hello Jon,

Interesting. I never heard that before. Can you cite to anything to confirm that?

c.d.

Hi c.d.

It was one of those details that you read but never think to 'bookmark'.
The body was important evidence until the cause of death was officially established. After the end of the inquest, until the burial, I wouldn't know what procedures were followed.

Any theory that suggests the body was tempered with before the end of the inquest fails to acknowledge the importance of the body as evidence.

[c.d.]

Hello (again) CD.

"My comment was directed at Lynn. He thinks all of the victims were out selling magazine subscriptions rather than soliciting."

Not so. Polly and Annie--by their own words--were soliciting.

But, once again, I refuse to make the illogical leap from the existential quantifier to the universal. So should you.

Cheers.
LC

Ok. No more leaping over the existential quantifier for me. From now on, I am tiptoeing around that bad boy.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

"The mortuary in which the body of the murdered woman lies is situated at the corner of Eagle-street, a cul de sac ending in a pair of green doors, within which several officers of the police guard the remains of the dead."

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/manchester_guardian/mg880910.html