Facial Mutilations

[Errata]

Just don't think we should be ruling out a paranoid schizophrenic type like Chase or Napper, based on the misguided argument that someone operating under that kind of psychosis would've been caught.

Is the argument that they are killing because they are psychotic, or that they are killing when they are not psychotic?

Because someone with delusions of the pope can kill when they aren't psychotic. Assuming they have none of the more debilitating physical or neurological symptoms associated with schizophrenia, anyone can kill when they are perfectly lucid.

[Harry D]

Just don't think we should be ruling out a paranoid schizophrenic type like Chase or Napper, based on the misguided argument that someone operating under that kind of psychosis would've been caught.

[Errata]

If one took a spectrum of disorganised to organised killers, with Richard Chase at one end and the likes of Bundy/Gacy at the other, I'd contend that the Ripper would be closer to Chase on that scale than he would the latter. You only have to look at the recent discussion on the murder locations to see that this was someone who took massive gambles, killing his victims in a yard next to a busy social club, the back garden of an occupied house, and backstreets regularly patrolled by constables, two victims in one night etc. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the Ripper was at the same level of psychosis as Chase, but even Chase had a basic survival instinct and knew when to flee from the scene of the crime when he thought he was about to get caught. It was only after a woman who went to high school with Chase recognised a police sketch that he ended up on the police radar. Perhaps it was a matter of time before he would've been caught anyway, but couldn't we say the same about the Ripper? We only assume that he was some kind of master criminal because he got away with it. We have no idea why the Whitechapel murders came to an end, it could well have been because he was locked away in an asylum.

We have two serial killers/rapists, Richard Chase & Robert Napper who were both paranoid schizophrenics with ritualistic traits, both mutilated their victims, took organs as trophies, posed their victims, and made no effort to hide the bodies. That doesn't mean that the Ripper was a dead match for these guys, but there are obvious parallels which shouldn't be dismissed.

I think there is a difference between saying that Jack is like Chase and that Jack is a little more like Chase than Bundy. Because there is a spectrum, and there are a lot of comparisons between the Ripper and a lot of other killers. Kemper for starters.

And also what a person does with a body is not part of the organised/disorganized spectrum (if that exists, and it increasingly looks like it doesn't). It's part of a different psychological mechanism. There some good literature out there about body dumpers, collectors and abandoners. Yes mental illness can inform the choice to be any of those things, but you get "disorganized" psychotics in all three categories. So leaving a body where it lies is not a function of psychosis, not is it confined to psychosis. Nor is it confined to "disorganized" types. Some killers do it because they don't care. Son of Sam did it to get attention. But despite the press, that guy is probably saner than I am.

[Harry D]

If one took a spectrum of disorganised to organised killers, with Richard Chase at one end and the likes of Bundy/Gacy at the other, I'd contend that the Ripper would be closer to Chase on that scale than he would the latter. You only have to look at the recent discussion on the murder locations to see that this was someone who took massive gambles, killing his victims in a yard next to a busy social club, the back garden of an occupied house, and backstreets regularly patrolled by constables, two victims in one night etc. I'm not necessarily suggesting that the Ripper was at the same level of psychosis as Chase, but even Chase had a basic survival instinct and knew when to flee from the scene of the crime when he thought he was about to get caught. It was only after a woman who went to high school with Chase recognised a police sketch that he ended up on the police radar. Perhaps it was a matter of time before he would've been caught anyway, but couldn't we say the same about the Ripper? We only assume that he was some kind of master criminal because he got away with it. We have no idea why the Whitechapel murders came to an end, it could well have been because he was locked away in an asylum.

We have two serial killers/rapists, Richard Chase & Robert Napper who were both paranoid schizophrenics with ritualistic traits, both mutilated their victims, took organs as trophies, posed their victims, and made no effort to hide the bodies. That doesn't mean that the Ripper was a dead match for these guys, but there are obvious parallels which shouldn't be dismissed.

[Abby Normal]

I don't know. Richard Chase had no control. Yes he killed six people, but in three "acts". The first guy was drive by, which was not in his "style", and accomplished few of his goals. He did it because he felt the need, and did not have the capacity to wait and try for something better. The second was chance because of his locked door theory, and the last four were in a frenzy. He had no chance, none whatsoever, of avoiding detection or confrontation. That those things didn't happen were sheer luck. And he wasn't even hunting people when he was going into these houses. He was following other instincts, but when confronted with people he took advantage. He didn't wait for people to come home. He didn't leave because no one was there. He despoiled their houses, stole things, did his thing, moved on. But he wasn't looking for victims specifically. He took them if he found them.

Never mind the fact that had the cops asked people "Gee who do you think this psycho killer is?" everyone who had ever met him would have pointed at Chase. And Chase would have admitted it. Well, he would have ranted for awhile first, but then he would have copped to it.

Chase was so sick that not only was this murder spree always going to happen, they knew it when he was a kid. He needed blood and violence the way we need medicine. Literally. He thought he was dying and this was the cure. So imagine the subtlety you would be capable of if someone poisoned you, and was holding the antidote, but wouldn't give it to you. How much do you care about cops or the law or even the life of the guy who poisoned you in that moment? What would you do to live? Chase's schizophrenia was severe and complicated. His brain really was attacking him. What he did makes sense if you understand his delusions. Sure it's not rational, but his beliefs were as unshakable to him as your belief in gravity is to you. Of course he did this. He was always going to do this. And yet again in the annals of serial killer history, he might have had a chance were it not for his mother. She thought she knew best. She was very wrong.

I don't see Jack that way. I don't see him as some criminal mastermind, but I see a guy in control. He can edit. He can adapt. He is not lashing out, he is hunting. He has the ability to recognize that launching himself at the first potential victim he sees won't end well for him. He is not a rabid dog. He is not consumed by his desires. He has at least some control. He knows that even a few minutes worth of self control will pay off. And he can wait for that payoff. He can stop and run. Something I don't Chase could have done.

And anyway, statistically speaking, far more people kill because they WANT to than because they HAVE to. Far more serial killers kill despite knowing that it is wrong than kill because they think it's right. The biggest problem in that community is narcissism. Not psychosis.
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Great post Errata
Agree entirely!

[Errata]

I still think we're dealing with a killer who was not unlike Richard Chase, or should that be the other way around?

The males were all shot dead, but Evelyn Miroth was even more severely mutilated than Terry Wallin. There were two crossing cuts across across her abdomen, through which her intestines protruded. Her body was covered in stab wounds, some particularly aimed at her face and anal area.

I don't know. Richard Chase had no control. Yes he killed six people, but in three "acts". The first guy was drive by, which was not in his "style", and accomplished few of his goals. He did it because he felt the need, and did not have the capacity to wait and try for something better. The second was chance because of his locked door theory, and the last four were in a frenzy. He had no chance, none whatsoever, of avoiding detection or confrontation. That those things didn't happen were sheer luck. And he wasn't even hunting people when he was going into these houses. He was following other instincts, but when confronted with people he took advantage. He didn't wait for people to come home. He didn't leave because no one was there. He despoiled their houses, stole things, did his thing, moved on. But he wasn't looking for victims specifically. He took them if he found them.

Never mind the fact that had the cops asked people "Gee who do you think this psycho killer is?" everyone who had ever met him would have pointed at Chase. And Chase would have admitted it. Well, he would have ranted for awhile first, but then he would have copped to it.

Chase was so sick that not only was this murder spree always going to happen, they knew it when he was a kid. He needed blood and violence the way we need medicine. Literally. He thought he was dying and this was the cure. So imagine the subtlety you would be capable of if someone poisoned you, and was holding the antidote, but wouldn't give it to you. How much do you care about cops or the law or even the life of the guy who poisoned you in that moment? What would you do to live? Chase's schizophrenia was severe and complicated. His brain really was attacking him. What he did makes sense if you understand his delusions. Sure it's not rational, but his beliefs were as unshakable to him as your belief in gravity is to you. Of course he did this. He was always going to do this. And yet again in the annals of serial killer history, he might have had a chance were it not for his mother. She thought she knew best. She was very wrong.

I don't see Jack that way. I don't see him as some criminal mastermind, but I see a guy in control. He can edit. He can adapt. He is not lashing out, he is hunting. He has the ability to recognize that launching himself at the first potential victim he sees won't end well for him. He is not a rabid dog. He is not consumed by his desires. He has at least some control. He knows that even a few minutes worth of self control will pay off. And he can wait for that payoff. He can stop and run. Something I don't Chase could have done.

And anyway, statistically speaking, far more people kill because they WANT to than because they HAVE to. Far more serial killers kill despite knowing that it is wrong than kill because they think it's right. The biggest problem in that community is narcissism. Not psychosis.
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[Abby Normal]

I still think we're dealing with a killer who was not unlike Richard Chase, or should that be the other way around?

The males were all shot dead, but Evelyn Miroth was even more severely mutilated than Terry Wallin. There were two crossing cuts across across her abdomen, through which her intestines protruded. Her body was covered in stab wounds, some particularly aimed at her face and anal area.

I don't think he was overtly insane like chase.
Im thinking more along the lines of Dahmer, William suff and kemper.

Although no other serial killer is very similar to the ripper.

[Harry D]

I still think we're dealing with a killer who was not unlike Richard Chase, or should that be the other way around?

The males were all shot dead, but Evelyn Miroth was even more severely mutilated than Terry Wallin. There were two crossing cuts across across her abdomen, through which her intestines protruded. Her body was covered in stab wounds, some particularly aimed at her face and anal area.

[Beowulf]

Unless he was feasting on things. I'm just playing with the idea, not sold on it, just tinkering.

[Rosella]

Ed Gein though, kept and used as masks the faces of the middle aged women that he killed and disinterred, didn't he, using them as interior decoration pieces and adornments for himself? He had been dominated all his life by a zealot mother who 'abandoned' him by dying. He feared having a sex-change operation. From what was known of his background some conclusions were able to be drawn as to his motivations for some of what he did, including the theory that he wanted to bring his mother back by 'being' her himself.

There's doesn't seem to be anything in Jack's treatment of his victims that suggests, in my opinion, that he wished to gain their femininity by taking a uterus and a kidney (and perhaps a heart.) He seems to me to have wanted to play with Eddowes face, a nick here and there, a slash there, almost scribbling on her face with his knife. He destroyed Mary's face, just obliterating everything human about her. I do think Jack hated women, but his wanting to be one (impossible at that time of course) is more problematic to me.

[Beowulf]

It's interesting that JTR is always noted for his female parts attacks, showing his hatred for women, but he did rip up some faces. Point being was that because they were female faces?

Or maybe was this guy not hating women but wishing he was a woman? Wanting to possess 'woman-ness' by focusing on the parts that made him think distinctly of that.

A mad transsexual? Ed Gein comes to mind.

[Michael W Richards]

These women whatever they were doing at the time they met their killer suffered. They suffered in death and they suffered in life. They did what they had to to survive we luckily are not in their position we can't know their feelings so we have no right to judge them by standards we can not begin to understand the emotional impact of

A little over the top, but not innacurate Belinda. Ive fought with many people here over the years about the negative assumptions made about these women, but it seems people feel superior enough to judge anyone not abiding by what they believe are virtuous lifestyles.

I think Id like to see what a few of them do when they are starving and freezing.

Cheers

[belinda]

These women whatever they were doing at the time they met their killer suffered. They suffered in death and they suffered in life. They did what they had to to survive we luckily are not in their position we can't know their feelings so we have no right to judge them by standards we can not begin to understand the emotional impact of

[Michael W Richards]

I wasn't accusing any of these women of anything Michael, contrary to your assertions. I have said several times on this and other threads that the C-5 and other women in the under-class of the East End did what they could to survive. That included, sewing, cleaning, washing, selling handiwork, and exchanging sex for money when they had to, when their cash ran out. However, occasional prostitution is still prostitution, whichever way you want to address it. I still think Mary Kelly was probably a full time 'unfortunate' in the last few weeks of her life, after Joe lost his job. She doesn't seem to have had any other known occupation and helping her friend Maria with laundry wasn't likely to pay too many bills.

I didn't mean to come across so harshly Rosella, but I do think it needs being emphasized that we do not know, with reasonable certainty, how three of the Five met their killer(s) on the respective murder nights.

Lets use the example you used above, Mary. Joe Barnett did not like Mary working the streets, he said as much himself, and he had only left Mary with Maria in room 13 at the very end of October. Maria moved out the Tuesday of that last week, which means...Mary had only 2 nights where she was the sole occupant of room 13, Wednesday and Thursday. That miniscule timeframe doesn't lend itself to a period where Mary re-imagined her living style and suddenly decides to invite strangers into that room for sex for money exchanges. In fact, we have evidence that on her last night she invited someone into her room and then sang for over an hour. Street whores performed their services in a matter of minutes with strange men in alleys and backyards, none of the encounters that we hear of in that vein include a serenade. Certainly not an hours worth anyway.

I believe its likely Polly and Mary, of the Five, were the ones that relied most frequently on the selling their bodies, but its clear by the evidence we have that only Polly and Annie left us with witness testimony that suggests they were soliciting their last night.

Using Liz as another example, of what the evidence shows us on the final night...IF Liz was telling the truth when she told her landlady that she had been at work "among the Jews" and she is lingering inside the club passageway... while the streets are empty and the yard supposedly equally occupied... after a large meeting had ended... comprised of Immigrant Jews, then its far more likely she was there to clean "among the jews", to meet a Jewish client who she is planning to work for over the high holidays that were just beginning at that very time, or that she has met a Jewish man since leaving Kidney and has a social engagement planned with him, than it is she was selling her services to the empty street and yard.

When the corsage and mints are added in, plus the request for a lint brush before leaving the lodging house, the ankle length skirt...the overall impression is one that follows the suggestions I made above.

When we assume the women were soliciting, then we also assume how they met their killer, or if they may have known the man or men. We would also assume that the motivations of the killer are limited to psychopathic compulsions.

Without those assumptions, we then have a myriad of possibilities for who may have killed them and why. When you have 3 of the victims just ending serious relationships, (Kate certainly doesn't rush back to John after her release from jail), then you have the potential for a motive. When you also know that one of those 3 victims was seeing someone on the side that occasionally "treats her ill", then you have a possible link to a motive there.

My point...Just because we still don't know what most were doing on their last nights, it doesn't mean by default that they were soliciting. It simply means we don't know.

Cheers

[Rosella]

I wasn't accusing any of these women of anything Michael, contrary to your assertions. I have said several times on this and other threads that the C-5 and other women in the under-class of the East End did what they could to survive. That included, sewing, cleaning, washing, selling handiwork, and exchanging sex for money when they had to, when their cash ran out. However, occasional prostitution is still prostitution, whichever way you want to address it. I still think Mary Kelly was probably a full time 'unfortunate' in the last few weeks of her life, after Joe lost his job. She doesn't seem to have had any other known occupation and helping her friend Maria with laundry wasn't likely to pay too many bills.