How Fast An Operator Was JtR?

[GUT]

HOW FAST WAS JtR

G'Day All

Back to the original question. How long is a piece of string! Doesn't this depend on what experience and skill set he had? Doesn't it also depend on how desperate he was? And in any event isn't speed comparative, ie what I think is quick you might think is sloooooooow!!

GUT

[Bridewell]

And only two ladies had missing body parts.

Lynn,

Which of Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly are you discounting? Kelly?

"The Pericardium was open below & the Heart absent"

Are you saying the heart was absent from the pericardium but not from the room?

[Michael W Richards]

HOW FAST WAS JtR

G'Day All

Back to the original question. How long is a piece of string! Doesn't this depend on what experience and skill set he had? Doesn't it also depend on how desperate he was? And in any event isn't speed comparative, ie what I think is quick you might think is sloooooooow!!

GUT

You bring up a couple of significant issues....evidence of skill and knowledge, evidence that speed was a factor. The barometer for the speed issue is the statements made by physicians concerning estimates of their own abilities to replicate the actions taken with the victims.

There is little doubt that the pronouncement on the skill and knowledge the killer employed when murdering Annie Chapman was that he could well have had medical training. The investigation slants towards that premise immediately after Annies death. Some agree with that, some not, but it is the documented position. It was apparently also done with uncommon speed, or at a faster pace than a surgeon would traditionally work. The senior investigators sought out information on several medical students as potential suspects. Keeping that in mind, remember that both Polly and Annie had usually deep throat cuts

Now....are the wounds to Kate Eddowes in keeping with that level of expertise, or were they compromised by haste, assuming Lawende did indeed see Kate at 1:35am? Is there any indication in the mess that is room 13 that Marys killer had any of those 2 attributes? Can we see skill beyond knowing that a deep throat cut kills in the murder of Liz Stride?

I think the most contentious topic is "Where is skill displayed?" in the discussion of these cases, and the answer is likely the most important when assessing how many women were killed by the same lone man.

Cheers

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

In my opinion you hit the nail on the head.

"The barometer for the speed issue is the statements made by physicians concerning estimates of their own abilities to replicate the actions taken with the victims."

But it also SEEMS in Kelly's case and maybe the others as well that they might disregard the "Frenzy" factor. I have real problems with the estimate that Kelly took 2 hours (I stress opinion only) but opinion based on discussions with Forensic specialists.

"It was apparently also done with uncommon speed, or at a faster pace than a surgeon would traditionally work."


GUT

[Michael W Richards]

G'Day Michael

In my opinion you hit the nail on the head.

"The barometer for the speed issue is the statements made by physicians concerning estimates of their own abilities to replicate the actions taken with the victims."

But it also SEEMS in Kelly's case and maybe the others as well that they might disregard the "Frenzy" factor. I have real problems with the estimate that Kelly took 2 hours (I stress opinion only) but opinion based on discussions with Forensic specialists.

"It was apparently also done with uncommon speed, or at a faster pace than a surgeon would traditionally work."


GUT

Youve made some good first posts Gut, and sorry I've neglected to welcome you.

There is little agreement here, or anywhere, on this issue of skill, but for me personally, I continue to use Annie Chapman's murder as the one to gauge what Jack the Ripper did. Its the one that spawned his name in the first place. And the opinions on the manner in which she was mutilated. Which implies I favor a man with some skill and knowledge as Jack..from Butcher to med student, or possibly, a surgeon.

If that murder is the one we can measure his abilities by....then what effect would stress, timing, illness...have on those abilities to better explain later murders, and can we say by what was done to Annie that we have a basis for a rough profile? Something to better measure the circumstantial evidence by....since the medical evidence is controversial.

My feeling is yes obviously, and thats why I favor a greatly reduced size of Canonical Group...from 2 to 3 victims by the same lone guy. Which to me makes this a fascinating subject.....trying to solve the probable exclusions.

Enjoy...and know that many discussions dont always take on this kind of congenial tone.

Cheers

[Damaso Marte]

The barometer for the speed issue is the statements made by physicians concerning estimates of their own abilities to replicate the actions taken with the victims.

Why should we assume that doctors, trained to perform surgery with caution, preparation, and other considerations relevant to keeping the patient alive, should have that might insight into the "efficiency" of somebody who is cutting people open for a completely different reason, with very possibly a completely different background and education?

[GUT]

G'Day Michael

Thanks for the welcome!

I'm well aware that all is not so congenial.

While a new poster I'm a long time follower.

GUT

[Errata]

Why should we assume that doctors, trained to perform surgery with caution, preparation, and other considerations relevant to keeping the patient alive, should have that might insight into the "efficiency" of somebody who is cutting people open for a completely different reason, with very possibly a completely different background and education?

It's why I compared it to tearing out upholstery in a couch. Any time you cut into anything without caring about the condition it is left in, you have a better comparison. With the couch, it was getting a new covering and new stuffing. The only thing I had to worry about was not punching through the bottom and not hitting springs which would twist the knife out of my hands.

Speed relies on many factors. Knowledge, practice, skill, emotional state, physical state, a clear head, and really above all purpose. Purpose is the big one here. What was he doing? Why was he doing it? What was his priority? What did he care about, what did he not? While any idiot cannot stumble onto a way to fix a blockage in the heart, any idiot can get an organ out fairly intact. So without any of the factors above, a guy can get lucky and do it. Except purpose. Nothing happens without that. Was it more important to cut up Eddowes face than to not get caught? Was the uterus more important than the throat injuries? What was he after? Where did he spend most of his time? And why? Was he under he impression he had all the time in the world and was just naturally fast, or did he know he had to really hustle?

Because here's the thing. If the act of mutilation itself was more important than anything, then a: it's a miracle he wasn't caught, and b: He was naturally fast, but he was a high risk taker. If the throat injuries were what he was after, then he was engaging in mutilation in his spare time. Lower priority, lower speed. If Eddowes face cuts were necessary in order for him to proceed, he did it quickly and first. If not, he saved it for last and likely spent even less time doing it. The only way he lingers over those cuts is if it was his priority, making nothing else he did all that important to him. People rush through preliminaries. They linger over priorities. It could be the majority of his time was spent butchering their throats, and the mutilations were fast and simple, based on curiosity. Or vice versa. Or the whole thing was rushed because it was solely for the benefit of the police. Or the whole thing was lingered over because he was painting a picture so to speak, and every part mattered.

But a guy who goes in knowing exactly what he will do, and which parts are important s going to be faster than the guy who decides to play as he goes.

[lynn cates]

disparity

Hello Amanda. Thanks.

"In the case of Stride it may be possible that someone else did it but it seems a terrible coincidence, then, that on the very same night there were two men out there, within walking distance of one another, cutting women's throats."

Actually, over in Westminster (2 miles from Kate) Mrs. Brown had HER throat cut as well. Coincidences DO happen.

"There is nothing to suggest that they were not done by the same person. . ."

Nothing at all?

Polly and Annie had deep, parallel neck cuts; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had facial bruising; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had lacerated/protruding tongues; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had abdominal cuts ALL downward; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had no cut clothing; not Kate.

So perhaps there IS evidence of disparity?

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

yes

Hello Colin. Thanks.

"Are you saying the heart was absent from the pericardium but not from the room?"

Given later published remarks, that seems correct.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Hello Colin. Thanks.

"Are you saying the heart was absent from the pericardium but not from the room?"

Given later published remarks, that seems correct.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

Can you point me in the right direction for those published remarks please. I've always seen this as one of many issues which can be argued either way - it would be good to see one of them resolved.

[lynn cates]

account

Hello Colin. Thanks.

Alas, this is yet another to go without resolution.

The blurb, however, was to the effect that ALL parts were accounted for.

I suppose that there is no dispute that MOST were accounted for?

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

G'Day Lynn

Pardon my ignorance but what blurb says this

The blurb, however, was to the effect that ALL parts were accounted for.

I freely accept I may have missed it but I have only ever seen the heart referred to as absent but I've never been clear if this meant from the body or the room.


GUT

[lynn cates]

point

Hello GUT. Thanks.

The blurb is found here--also the counter blurbs.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5714

It is STILL unclear whether her heart were missing. NOT unclear that Annie and Kate had absent parts--which was my point.

Cheers.
LC

[Bridewell]

Hello GUT. Thanks.

The blurb is found here--also the counter blurbs.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5714

It is STILL unclear whether her heart were missing. NOT unclear that Annie and Kate had absent parts--which was my point.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,

Thanks for that link. The following is quoted from Wolf Vanderlinden's post on that thread:

There were newspaper reports, the Daily Telegraph 13 November for example, which did actually state that some “bodily organ” was missing while the Observer, 18 November, stated flat out that the killer “cut the woman’s heart out and carried it away.”

I don't think (and am sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong ) that Bond's report was in the public domain when the Observer article was published so, unless their source, whatever its nature, was similarly ambiguous I think it more likely than not that Kelly's heart was completely absent (i.e. removed from the scene by the perpetrator).