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  • How Fast An Operator Was JtR?

    That's not a very catchy title. The question I am seeking to pose is whether, if there was indeed a JtR, he was the lightning-fast operator that the witness evidence might seem to suggest.

    I ask because (with reference to the so-called C5) (all times approximate):

    Nichols: We don't have any real time parameters for the murder so it (including the abdominal damage) may or may not have been rapidly accomplished.
    (2.30am to 3.45am).

    Chapman: Similar situation
    (1.45am to 5.30am)
    .

    Stride: Very narrow time-span but also no mutilation beyond the injury inflicted in order to cause death
    (12.45am to 1am).

    Eddowes: There was mutilation to the face and abdomen as well as organ removal. This appears, based on Lawende's evidence, to have been accomplished within an incredibly narrow time frame
    (1.35am to 1.44am).

    Kelly: Injuries too numerous to mention but which the police surgeon thought could not have been accomplished in less than two hours. Time frame difficult to determine with certainty but, if Cox is accepted as being reliable, potentially ample
    (11.45pm to 10.45am). Obviously rather less if credence is given to the Hutchinson account, but surely still more than sufficient.

    It seems to me that the whole idea of JtR the lightning-fast knife wielder is wholly dependent on the woman seen by Lawende and his companions having been Eddowes rather than another individual of similar appearance. If the possibility of error is taken into account the window of opportunity widens from the time of her release from Bishopsgate to the time of discovery
    (1am to 1.44am).

    I find it easier to believe that Lawende's identification of the woman seen as Eddowes was mistaken than that her killer allayed her fears, killed her, carried out the mutilations and organ removal and got clean away unobserved within the space of 9 minutes.

    My (tentative) contention is that JtR (if there was such an entity) rather than having any defined mutilation limits in mind, hacked away until he feared discovery and then took to his heels - that he was constrained by time rather than by objective if that makes sense.

    Does the notion of Jack as a fast worker have any factual basis or should it be dismissed as untenable? Any thoughts?
    Last edited by Bridewell; 01-05-2014, 03:56 PM.
    "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

  • #2
    Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
    Kelly: Injuries too numerous to mention but which the police surgeon thought could not have been accomplished in less than two hours.
    It was a crude job, to say the least. The whole Kelly "operation" could easily have been finished in under 30 minutes, in my estimation.

    There's an old posting where I show my workings-out here: http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...25&postcount=2
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
      Does the notion of Jack as a fast worker have any factual basis or should it be dismissed as untenable?
      He was definitely a fast worker, Bridewell. No question.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

      Comment


      • #4
        longer time

        Hello Colin. Thanks for starting this thread.

        I think you are spot on. If Kate was NOT seen by the trio, that would lengthen the time frame to near a quarter hour.

        Cheers.
        LC

        Comment


        • #5
          The evidence does seem to suggest that Jack was a quick operator.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hullo all.

            Very good idea for a thread. Seems that the Eddowes murder is the one. I would not be so fast to dismiss the sighting by Lawende and co. Fact is there was a man and woman but a short walk away around the right time. Could've not been the right couple, but it sure does sync up rather well. Something about horse mouths comes to mind. About how long of a walk was it from the police station to Mitre Square anyways? I don't see why the murder could not have occured in that span of time. With the, how you say, sloppiness of the job, especially when compared to the two previous also with mutilations, it makes some sense at least. So maybe "JTR" didn't work fast everytime, but it appears there is a good possibilty Eddowes murderer did work very fast. Whether or not Eddowes' murderer was responsible for other similar murders is another matter of course.
            Valour pleases Crom.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
              Hello Colin. Thanks for starting this thread.

              I think you are spot on. If Kate was NOT seen by the trio, that would lengthen the time frame to near a quarter hour.
              If he'd had 15, or even 10, minutes at his disposal, Lynn, I should expect Eddowes' mutilations to have been far more severe.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

              Comment


              • #8
                Por que?

                Hello Gareth. Thanks.

                Why, particularly?

                Cheers.
                LC

                Comment


                • #9
                  There was a PC who visited Mitre Square after 1AM but didn't see a body, was there not? Wouldn't that, rather than 1 AM, be the earliest possible start time for the Eddowes murder?

                  Also how do we factor in the commonly-held belief that Nichols showed signs of being only recently killed/possibly still alive at the time of her discovery?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think these murders are one of those situations in which you think something would take a long time, but really doesn't. The most complex thing he does is remove the uterus almost perfectly. Which is not easy. But you make more cuts slicing up a loaf of bread than he made in the abdomen. Familiarity can buy someone quite a bit of time.

                    Difficult does not equal time consuming. It can, but it doesn't always. Putting in contact lenses is difficult. It is contrary to every instinct and reflex, and you can't see to put something transparent on your eyeball. By the math, this should always fail. But after a week or so, most people manage to do it in two minutes. The fact that it no longer bothers someone to put in contacts, or that they can do it quickly does not negate the difficulty.

                    And in figure skating, everyone gets the same score for landing a double axel. For some skaters this is ridiculously easy. For others it's stupid hard. Doesn't matter. Degree of difficulty remains the same for everyone.
                    The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Hi Bridewell,


                      Elizabeth Long identified Chapman talking to a man shortly before her body was discovered, shortening that time window considerably if Long is to be believed.

                      It's rather funny. We can take the same set of basic facts and you can conclude that - Stride and Eddowes aside - Jack could work at an almost leisurely pace, and others can conclude that - with the exception of Kelly - Jack was constantly on the verge of being interrupted.

                      Best,

                      Barnaby

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Our killer was certainty a risk taker and we have always assumed no one saw him at his vile work however how sure are we that the eyewitnesses saw him and not someone else.It has been suggested that the copper on duty at mitre sqaure might have actually seen him during his attack on eddowes and was to frightened to do anything also it has been suggested he was skiving with the watchman in the warehouse.Our evidence about timings means that our witnesses were telling the truth did Mrs long see anything?I know she received a few quid from a newspaper for her story and how well did she know Chapman to be able to identify her. we even have someone claiming to have spoken to Mary Kelly even when she was clearly dead!A theory that explains his boldness is the two man theory a killer and a lookout which has never really been taken that seriously.
                        Last edited by pinkmoon; 01-06-2014, 12:54 PM.
                        Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn
                          If he'd had 15, or even 10, minutes at his disposal, Lynn, I should expect Eddowes' mutilations to have been far more severe.
                          Why, particularly?
                          Just a gut feeling. Eddowes' mutilations were already more severe than Chapman's or Nichols' before her. If he'd had but a couple of extra minutes with Eddowes, I think he'd have indulged himself a little more.

                          Interestingly - and this has only just occurred to me - perhaps what he achieved in such a short time span in Mitre Square might tell us something about the previous murders. Specifically, the time he had available to "finish the job" on those occasions, and what might have prompted him to stop when he did.
                          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Eddowes: There was mutilation to the face and abdomen as well as organ removal. This appears, based on Lawende's evidence, to have been accomplished within an incredibly narrow time frame
                            (1.35am to 1.44am).

                            It seems to me that the whole idea of JtR the lightning-fast knife wielder is wholly dependent on the woman seen by Lawende and his companions having been Eddowes rather than another individual of similar appearance. If the possibility of error is taken into account the window of opportunity widens from the time of her release from Bishopsgate to the time of discovery
                            (1am to 1.44am).

                            I find it easier to believe that Lawende's identification of the woman seen as Eddowes was mistaken than that her killer allayed her fears, killed her, carried out the mutilations and organ removal and got clean away unobserved within the space of [B]9 minutes[/
                            B].

                            Hi Bridewell,

                            I agree with you, I think its likely that she was killed earlier, and therefore Lawende didnt actually see Kate. However you need to modify the possible start point, since at 1am she is just being released and still a few minutes walk to her murder location. Maybe just after Watkins had his last go-through the square before eventually finding her at around 1:44 on his next pass. I believe his circuit was around 20 minutes long, so perhaps from 1:20 until 1:44?

                            Its also worth noting here that at the time many police wondered aloud if she had been killed elsewhere and dumped at that spot, and also that she may have had an "appointment" to meet someone.

                            The timing using Lawendes sighting as factual is rather hard to accept, roughly 8 minutes to get her into the square, to the spot she will die on,...to kill her, open her clothing, do all that he does, cut some of her apron off, and still leave before Harvey looks into the square sounds a bit strained. I believe that all the mutilations, the facial marking, the severing of a colon section and placing it between her arm and body, would likely have taken as much time as we have in total using Lawende...I cant see him doing it all in around 5-6 minutes. Particularly with the apron section....that may represent a lack of planning on his part or a reaction to feces on his hands, interrupting any "process" he may have had underway. Just that incident, the severing of the colon, the placing it between arm and body, the decision to cut some cloth from the deceased and then the cutting of the apron section may have been a minute or two. Getting her to the location and killing her might have taken a few minutes, ...so there is roughly 4 of his 8 minutes gone.

                            Which means the cutting of her clothes to get at her, the mutilations themselves...cutting around her navel, the extractions, and the facial mutilations took about 4 minutes. Hard to fathom.

                            But there is a marked difference in the way these things were done to Kate when compared with Annie for example. The cutting on Annie was more "skilled" than on Kate, the stomach flaps for example.......which could just mean he had more time there...or it could mean the same hand didnt cut both women.

                            Kate is definitely the murder upon which the "proof" of the alleged speed of the killer rests though...I do agree with that.

                            Cheers
                            Michael Richards

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                              Eddowes: There was mutilation to the face and abdomen as well as organ removal. This appears, based on Lawende's evidence, to have been accomplished within an incredibly narrow time frame
                              (1.35am to 1.44am).

                              It seems to me that the whole idea of JtR the lightning-fast knife wielder is wholly dependent on the woman seen by Lawende and his companions having been Eddowes rather than another individual of similar appearance. If the possibility of error is taken into account the window of opportunity widens from the time of her release from Bishopsgate to the time of discovery
                              (1am to 1.44am).

                              I find it easier to believe that Lawende's identification of the woman seen as Eddowes was mistaken than that her killer allayed her fears, killed her, carried out the mutilations and organ removal and got clean away unobserved within the space of [B]9 minutes[/
                              B].

                              Hi Bridewell,

                              I agree with you, I think its likely that she was killed earlier, and therefore Lawende didnt actually see Kate. However you need to modify the possible start point, since at 1am she is just being released and still a few minutes walk to her murder location. Maybe just after Watkins had his last go-through the square before eventually finding her at around 1:44 on his next pass. I believe his circuit was around 20 minutes long, so perhaps from 1:20 until 1:44?

                              Its also worth noting here that at the time many police wondered aloud if she had been killed elsewhere and dumped at that spot, and also that she may have had an "appointment" to meet someone.

                              The timing using Lawendes sighting as factual is rather hard to accept, roughly 8 minutes to get her into the square, to the spot she will die on,...to kill her, open her clothing, do all that he does, cut some of her apron off, and still leave before Harvey looks into the square sounds a bit strained. I believe that all the mutilations, the facial marking, the severing of a colon section and placing it between her arm and body, would likely have taken as much time as we have in total using Lawende...I cant see him doing it all in around 5-6 minutes. Particularly with the apron section....that may represent a lack of planning on his part or a reaction to feces on his hands, interrupting any "process" he may have had underway. Just that incident, the severing of the colon, the placing it between arm and body, the decision to cut some cloth from the deceased and then the cutting of the apron section may have been a minute or two. Getting her to the location and killing her might have taken a few minutes, ...so there is roughly 4 of his 8 minutes gone.

                              Which means the cutting of her clothes to get at her, the mutilations themselves...cutting around her navel, the extractions, and the facial mutilations took about 4 minutes. Hard to fathom.

                              But there is a marked difference in the way these things were done to Kate when compared with Annie for example. The cutting on Annie was more "skilled" than on Kate, the stomach flaps for example.......which could just mean he had more time there...or it could mean the same hand didnt cut both women.

                              Kate is definitely the murder upon which the "proof" of the alleged speed of the killer rests though...I do agree with that.

                              Cheers
                              Hi, surely Kate would take a client to a place where she would know they wouldn't be interrupted and also to give them the time to conduct their bussiness.Did she know that the beat Bobby didn't always go through the square? or that maybe he stopped of for a skive with the watchman from the warehouse? Would 10 minutes be enough?Also if Kate knew that was a safe area then others would so could the eyewitness not have seen Kate but some other poor unfortunate.It's not nice to accuse a police officer of neglecting his duty but it would explain a much wider time frame for the murder.Could they be any possibility that she was released from the police station earlier than we have been lead to believe?
                              Last edited by pinkmoon; 01-06-2014, 05:27 PM.
                              Three things in life that don't stay hidden for to long ones the sun ones the moon and the other is the truth

                              Comment

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