How Fast An Operator Was JtR?

[lynn cates]

Echo

Hello Colin. Thanks.

I think there is an "Echo" report of 13 November stating as much. I think the tenor was that, "In spite of what you may have read . . ."

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

The fact that Phillips, Bond & Macdonald felt the need to return to Millers Court on Sat. afternoon to sift the ashes, after the autopsy conducted that same morning, strongly suggests something was missing.

[GUT]

G'Day Lynn

Yes I'd read that. I just thought from some of the posts that I had missed something. So nothing has changed then, the heart was Absent, we're just not sure if missing from the room or just missin from the body.

GUT

[Wickerman]

All the organs that were removed from the body were arranged around the bed, and none were described as 'absent'.

Only the heart was described as absent, and not found on the bed, in the room, nor in the fireplace.

From this we can deduce what 'absent' meant.

[lynn cates]

take

Hello GUT. Thanks.

"we're just not sure if missing from the room or just missing from the body."

Well, that's my take.

Cheers.
LC

[Elenahoyos66]

I'd say 15 to 20 minutes tops.

He seemed to have attacked, knocked out, killed.

[Lechmere]

I'd say 5 mins tops except Kelly.

[Jon Guy]

My estimates for the length of attack times for all the Whitechapel murder victims, whoever killed them.

Smith - 2 mins
Tabram - 5 mins
Nichols - 3 mins
Chapman - 4 mins
Stride - 1 min
Eddowes - 4 mins
Kelly - 20 mins
Mylett - 1 min
McKenzie - 2 mins
Torso - 3 hrs
Coles - 1 min

[Amanda Sumner]

Hello Amanda. Thanks.

"In the case of Stride it may be possible that someone else did it but it seems a terrible coincidence, then, that on the very same night there were two men out there, within walking distance of one another, cutting women's throats."

Actually, over in Westminster (2 miles from Kate) Mrs. Brown had HER throat cut as well. Coincidences DO happen.

"There is nothing to suggest that they were not done by the same person. . ."

Nothing at all?

Polly and Annie had deep, parallel neck cuts; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had facial bruising; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had lacerated/protruding tongues; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had abdominal cuts ALL downward; not Kate.

Polly and Annie had no cut clothing; not Kate.

So perhaps there IS evidence of disparity?

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

You are right, there is evidence of disparity, but if our Jack had just got to the throat cutting stage and had to abandon then there would be no other marks on Kate.
I'm trying to find the murder statistics of that area for 1888 and also the year before. The point is, how common was it for people to die on the street by having their throat cut?

Lechmere : It would have taken far longer than 5 minutes, in my opinion, to have done that amount of damage to Eddowes.
Two hours is not unfeasible in the case of Kelly, the killer had her all to himself during those long dark hours of the night, but he probably could have achieved all that in far less time if he wanted to, but I think he lingered and enjoyed that one.

[Bridewell]

Two hours is not unfeasible in the case of Kelly, the killer had her all to himself during those long dark hours of the night, but he probably could have achieved all that in far less time if he wanted to, but I think he lingered and enjoyed that one.

Doesn't this presuppose that her killer knew how much time he had? In a busy court behind an unlocked door, I don't see how he can have done.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Doesn't this presuppose that her killer knew how much time he had? In a busy court behind an unlocked door, I don't see how he can have done.

Maybe he was comfortable with the scenario due to knowledge of the circumstances. If it was late/early, and aware the occupant lived alone he might have not been quite as concerned compared to being on the street. Also, with the setup of the room he could've had advantage against any interlopers. Still presupposing, but enough maybe to warrant not such a fevered pace as being on the streets completely exposed. Although being outdoors provides the advantage of being unbound. Oh, wait, unlocked door?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo!

My estimates for the length of attack times for all the Whitechapel murder victims, whoever killed them.

Smith - 2 mins
Tabram - 5 mins
Nichols - 3 mins
Chapman - 4 mins
Stride - 1 min
Eddowes - 4 mins
Kelly - 20 mins
Mylett - 1 min
McKenzie - 2 mins
Torso - 3 hrs
Coles - 1 min

Might Nichols and Chapman have taken longer due to the apparent? choking/strangulation? Also, something to consider is bleed out time and in the case of Stride and Eddowes, if no strangulation or other such tactic was employed, the restraining of the victim till they were no longer able to move. Just some other potetional factors to consider if they were not already. All in all not bad estimations on some quick work. Thanks.
Why so long for Tabram? 39 stabs in 5 minutes seems lengthy.

[Jon Guy]

Why so long for Tabram? 39 stabs in 5 minutes seems lengthy.

He possibly had to strangle her, and 39 stabs is a lot of hard work - hence he later ripped them !!!

[Errata]

My estimates for the length of attack times for all the Whitechapel murder victims, whoever killed them.

Smith - 2 mins
Tabram - 5 mins
Nichols - 3 mins
Chapman - 4 mins
Stride - 1 min
Eddowes - 4 mins
Kelly - 20 mins
Mylett - 1 min
McKenzie - 2 mins
Torso - 3 hrs
Coles - 1 min

While I think the C5 mutilations happened quickly, I do believe they happened when the women were dead. I mean, really dead not just unconscious or dying. Cutting into someone who is still living causes a whole bunch of reactions that simply don't seem to be present. Generally in deaths related to a lack of oxygen to the brain (either through asphyxia or lack of oxygenated blood) death occurs in around four minutes. A person can be revived after that, but in cases not involving hypothermia the brain has already started to die, and there's no recovery without severe damage. Thats the point at which unconscious movement, reflex, and autonomic functions stop. No electrical activity. That's the point I think we are looking at.

In the case of Jack the Ripper, I think that point is pretty easy to identify. The victims breathing would have stopped, which he would have been able to hear because she was choking on blood, the blood flow would have decreased from the throat wound, and she would have stopped jerking. It's a traumatic death. The body reacts to the trauma even after loss of consciousness.

Also the uterus is really not the easiest thing to get at. Even when you know where it is. There is some groping about the find the appropriate connections.

There is no reason any of these mutilations had to take more than 10 minutes, but I think they did have to take at least six minutes. Four for death, two for opening the abdomen and taking an organ. And he would have to know where the uterus was. Or have the ability to find it quickly, but thats my pet theory and not really applicable here. At least six minutes. But more than ten is him just being a tourist.

On the other hand, not knowing what drove him means we don't know what he might fixate on. There is always an element of obsessive behavior in any serial killer. If the guy gets all dreamy and lost staring at innards, it might have taken quite a bit longer. There is a difference between how fast can a person do this and how fast did THIS person did this. Just like I CAN eat a burger in under a minute, but I like to take my time, chew, not vomit, all of that.. so I don't eat a burger in under a minute.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Ah.

That accounts for the time. Thanks Jon Guy.

Errata, that seems quite reasonable. I tend to think that the murderer would allow some time for the blood to drain from the body to reduce mess when ripping and removing the organs and finish off the actual expiration of life without any struggle. Also reducing mess.