Was JtR a necrophile?

[John G]

I think errata first brought this to my attention in a thread on this sub forum not sure which one. The fetus in the jar was found in the thames around the same time as Jackson's pregnant torso yet doctors concluded it was not the missing baby. Explain that one? I tried doing some research but turned up Nary a mention at all. Torso may have kept the fetus as trophy or it ended up buried in some vault.

Errata good post. Do you think whitehall torso was left on purpose or intended to be buried? Not sure why it would have clippings if it was going to be buried. But why bury the limbs and leave torso? Again I think this was someone familiar with the vault and not someone who scoped out the place for dumping randomly.

I think that, like the scattering of the body parts in earlier murders, the burying of the torso in the New Scotland Yard building was intended to be the ultimate macabre joke, i.e. from his perspective, emphasizing his total superiority over an incompetent police force. The Pinchin Street Torso, dumped just 100 yards from Berner Street, and by the railway arches that Schwartz ran to, might have been intended to achieve the same effect.

[Batman]

A potential falsification. The torso parts don't appear to show signs of stitching. Although it would be easy enough to hide.

[jerryd]

I still subscribe to the multiple killer theory within the same group. Not necessarily the High Rip gang as this suggests, but, who knows. Interesting this note talks about one killer in the east end and one killer in the west end.

Daily News
United Kingdom
5 October 1888

"3 October.
Dear Boss *
Since last, splendid success. Two more and never a squeal. Oh, I am master of the art! I am going to be heavy on the guilded * now, we are. Some dutchess will cut up nicely, and the lace will show nicely. You wonder how. Oh, we are masters. No education like a butcher's. No animal like a nice woman * the fat are best. On to Brighton for a holiday, but we shan't idle * splendid high class women there. My mouth waters * good luck there. If
not, you will hear from me in West end. My pal will keep on at the east a while yet. When I get a nobility * I will send it on to C. Warren, or perhaps to you for a keepsake. O, it is jolly.
George of the High Rip Gang.
Red ink still, but a drop of the real stuff in it."


The other interesting thing about this one is the comment about nobility. Send what to Warren? Is this suggesting a body, as in torso?

[jerryd]

And this, from the same newspaper and day.

THE DISCOVERY ON THE EMBANKMENT
The officers who are making inquiries with respect to the shocking discovery made at the new police offices at Westminster have received information that on Saturday afternoon, at twenty minutes past five, a respectably dressed man, about 35 years of age, was seen to get over from the hoarding in Cannon row, and to walk quietly away, and that he was not followed, or the police informed of the matter, because no importance was attached to the matter at the time. The police have forwarded a description of this man to all police stations, with a view, if possible, of tracing him. Inquiries are also being made for the purpose of ascertaining whether any person on Saturday afternoon after the workmen had left the building was seen to get over the hoarding with any bundle. Yesterday morning the work of carefully examining the vaults where the body was found was diligently proceeded with by a number of detectives. There is a well in the vaults, and this has yet to be searched. The police are firmly of opinion that the individual who conveyed the body into the vaults was intimately acquainted with the formation of the building.

Sorry if this has been posted in this thread already.

[RockySullivan]

And this, from the same newspaper and day.

THE DISCOVERY ON THE EMBANKMENT
The officers who are making inquiries with respect to the shocking discovery made at the new police offices at Westminster have received information that on Saturday afternoon, at twenty minutes past five, a respectably dressed man, about 35 years of age, was seen to get over from the hoarding in Cannon row, and to walk quietly away, and that he was not followed, or the police informed of the matter, because no importance was attached to the matter at the time. The police have forwarded a description of this man to all police stations, with a view, if possible, of tracing him. Inquiries are also being made for the purpose of ascertaining whether any person on Saturday afternoon after the workmen had left the building was seen to get over the hoarding with any bundle. Yesterday morning the work of carefully examining the vaults where the body was found was diligently proceeded with by a number of detectives. There is a well in the vaults, and this has yet to be searched. The police are firmly of opinion that the individual who conveyed the body into the vaults was intimately acquainted with the formation of the building.

Sorry if this has been posted in this thread already.

It hasn't jerry thank you and that's the first I've heard of the respectably dressed man. The last line seems to reiterate what I've been saying. How many could have been intimately acquainted with the vaults? Someone who worked there before construction began?

[jerryd]

Thanks Rocky,

Remember Mr. Miller (man who supposedly found the thigh of Annie Jackson on the embankment)? Here, again, is the description Miller gave of John Cleary.

'John Cleary, formerly attached to the Globe office; age 35, height 6 feet., comp. fresh, hair and heavy moustache dark, bald, medium build, speaks peculiar, as though he has no roof to his mouth, who about 4 months ago was residing at 2, Savoy Buildings, Strand.'

Savoy Buildings in Strand were right next to the Adelphi Terrace and arches on the Victorian Embankment.

[RockySullivan]

No roof to his mouth? What on earth does that sound like?

[jerryd]

No roof to his mouth? What on earth does that sound like?

I feel really stupid for even trying this (you'll see what I mean) haha.

Say a word beginning with the letter "T" or D", such as "tongue" or "David", but don't let your tongue touch the roof of your mouth when you pronounce it. Now that's peculiar alright.

[Rosella]

Perhaps Cleary had a cleft lip and palette, a birth defect. It used to be referred to as a hare lip, because of the appearance of the top lip. Cleary had a full moustache, perhaps hiding it. In Victorian times there would have been no automatic treatment/operation for that condition.

[jerryd]

Incidentally the graffitti was found 'at the corner of Frederick Street." Frederick Street was a dark passage connecting to Pinchin Street under the railway lines south toward Cable Street. It did not connect to Cable Street, though.

[jerryd]

Perhaps Cleary had a cleft lip and palette, a birth defect. It used to be referred to as a hare lip, because of the appearance of the top lip. Cleary had a full moustache, perhaps hiding it. In Victorian times there would have been no automatic treatment/operation for that condition.

Good call Rosella. That could very well be it.

[John G]

I still subscribe to the multiple killer theory within the same group. Not necessarily the High Rip gang as this suggests, but, who knows. Interesting this note talks about one killer in the east end and one killer in the west end.

Daily News
United Kingdom
5 October 1888

"3 October.
Dear Boss *
Since last, splendid success. Two more and never a squeal. Oh, I am master of the art! I am going to be heavy on the guilded * now, we are. Some dutchess will cut up nicely, and the lace will show nicely. You wonder how. Oh, we are masters. No education like a butcher's. No animal like a nice woman * the fat are best. On to Brighton for a holiday, but we shan't idle * splendid high class women there. My mouth waters * good luck there. If
not, you will hear from me in West end. My pal will keep on at the east a while yet. When I get a nobility * I will send it on to C. Warren, or perhaps to you for a keepsake. O, it is jolly.
George of the High Rip Gang.
Red ink still, but a drop of the real stuff in it."


The other interesting thing about this one is the comment about nobility. Send what to Warren? Is this suggesting a body, as in torso?

What is interesting is that some of the Torso Murderers victims appeared to be from a much higher social class than the 1888 victims. For example, Dr Samuel Lloyd concluded that the Tottenham Court victim was a woman of refinement, based upon the "shape of the delicate arms, hands and well-manicured nails...the face was smooth and the hair long and fair". (Trow, 2011). The Whitehall victim was described as well-nourished and the liver, spleen and kidneys were normal, so clearly not an alcoholic, unlike many of the working-class women of the period. In respect of the Pinchin Street victim, her hands suggested that she had not been used to hard manual work; in fact she could have been a writer, as evidenced by the fact that "the right little finger had small circular hardening which might have been caused by writing". (Trow, 2011) Her nails were described as well kept and her organs were described by Dr Hebbert as "fairly healthy."

[RockySullivan]

What is interesting is that some of the Torso Murderers victims appeared to be from a much higher social class than the 1888 victims. For example, Dr Samuel Lloyd concluded that the Tottenham Court victim was a woman of refinement, based upon the "shape of the delicate arms, hands and well-manicured nails...the face was smooth and the hair long and fair". (Trow, 2011). The Whitehall victim was described as well-nourished and the liver, spleen and kidneys were normal, so clearly not an alcoholic, unlike many of the working-class women of the period. In respect of the Pinchon Street victim, her hands suggested that she had not been used to hard manual work; in fact she could have been a writer, as evidenced by the fact that "the right little finger had small circular hardening which might have been caused by writing". (Trow, 2011) Her nails were described as well kept and her organs were described by Dr Hebbert as "fairly healthy."

At the same time the Tottenham torso also had a tattoo right? The whitehall torso was also suggested to be lower class because of the gaiter marks which were below the knee.

[John G]

At the same time the Tottenham torso also had a tattoo right? The whitehall torso was also suggested to be lower class because of the gaiter marks which were below the knee.

Hi Rocky,

According to Trow the only women in the 1880s who would have been tattooed would be the "exotic" and the "avant- guard". This could relate to a high class society women but could also indicate a high class prostitute. This provides a tenuous connection to MJK, who had worked in the high class brothels, before turning to drink, and of the C5 murders Kelly's most closely resembles a Torso victim.

I've been looking at some interesting facts relating to the Pinchin Street Torso victim. As I noted in an earlier post, Pinchin Street was very close to Berner Street and the railway arches, where the torso was found, could have been the same arches that Scwartz ran to.

Annie Chapman was murdered on the 8th September 1888; the Pinchin Street Torso was discovered on the 10th September 1889, but it was believed that she'd been killed 2 days earlier, i.e. on the anniversary of Annie's death. Interestingly, on the 11th September, 1888, three days after Annie was killed, the first part of the Whitehall Torso, a women's arm, was discovered on the river bank- just a couple of hundred yards away from where part of the Rainham Torso had been found the previous year.

And then there's this interesting article from The East London Advertiser, 14th September 1889:

"That the memory of the notorious criminal [Lipski] is still fresh in the minds of the inhabitants around is shown by the fact that on a black paling opposite the arch under which the unknown body was hidden someone had written the word "Lipski" in large chalk letters. Whether done before the discovery or after no one seems to know, but the name was there."

Of course, Scwartz claimed that BS man shouted the name Lipski at him after he witnessed an assault on Stride.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky,

According to Trow the only women in the 1880s who would have been tattooed would be the "exotic" and the "avant- guard". This could relate to a high class society women but could also indicate a high class prostitute. This provides a tenuous connection to MJK, who had worked in the high class brothels, before turning to drink, and of the C5 murders Kelly's most closely resembles a Torso victim.

I've been looking at some interesting facts relating to the Pinchin Street Torso victim. As I noted in an earlier post, Pinchin Street was very close to Berner Street and the railway arches, where the torso was found, could have been the same arches that Scwartz ran to.

Annie Chapman was murdered on the 8th September 1888; the Pinchin Street Torso was discovered on the 10th September 1889, but it was believed that she'd been killed 2 days earlier, i.e. on the anniversary of Annie's death.

And then there's this interesting article from The East London Advertiser, 14th September 1889:

"That the memory of the notorious criminal [Lipski] is still fresh in the minds of the inhabitants around is shown by the fact that on a black paling opposite the arch under which the unknown body was hidden someone had written the word "Lipski" in large chalk letters. Whether done before the discovery or after no one seems to know, but the name was there."

Of course, Scwartz claimed that BS man shouted the name Lipski at him after he witnessed an assault on Stride.

Yes john I've found this far too coincidentall. I believe there is a connection here but was it pipeman & BSman or was torso simply referencing and mocking the incident with Schwartz?