What did the copy-cat killer copy?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby



Ok



Yes , I agree I don't think it very realistic at all, but it does seem to be suggested as explanation connected to the Kelly murder, quite regularly, both as a cover up for a ex-lover/lover, and all sort of conspiracy type motives



Mckenzie? , very interesting choice, can you tell us a bit more ?

Sure
This is how I see he breakdown of possible ripper victims:
Millwood. Possible
Wilson. Possible
Smith. Possible but unlikely
Tabram. Definite
Nichols. Definite
Chapman. Definite
Stride. Definite
MK. Definite
Torso victims. Possible but unlikely
Mckenzie. Probable
Coles. Possible but unlikely



Out of all those only Mckenzie seems to fit the bill as a possible cc. As you can tell I view Tabram and the c5 as being ripper victims, with mckenzie as probable. If she was not a ripper victim then I could possibly see her as a cc because of the weak attempt at abdominal mutilations. As in some customer, or boyfriend or street thug killed her for some reason and made the weak cut at the stomach area to try and make it look like the ripper to throw off blame from himself.


More than likely though I think she was probably a victim of the ripper who was either interrupted and/or drunk off his ass.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Abby

Sure
This is how I see he breakdown of possible ripper victims:
Millwood. Possible
Wilson. Possible
Smith. Possible but unlikely
Tabram. Definite
Nichols. Definite
Chapman. Definite
Stride. Definite
MK. Definite
Torso victims. Possible but unlikely
Mckenzie. Probable
Coles. Possible but unlikely

Thanks: myself, I've only got Nichols down as a definite! ( )

Out of all those only Mckenzie seems to fit the bill as a possible cc. As you can tell I view Tabram and the c5 as being ripper victims, with mckenzie as probable. If she was not a ripper victim then I could possibly see her as a cc because of the weak attempt at abdominal mutilations. As in some customer, or boyfriend or street thug killed her for some reason and made the weak cut at the stomach area to try and make it look like the ripper to throw off blame from himself.

The blind boy said she had a meeting with someone that night, possibly a potential customer? otherwise the street thug/customer would be spur of the moment, a boyfriend could possibly be premeditated.

I think it likely, if it was premeditated a better copy might have be attempted.

[Mr Lucky]

I don't remember seeing any mention of Tabram being asphyxiated during Dr Keleen Testimony, where he describes the stabs and give the cause of death as loss of blood, or seeing any mention of it anywhere in connection with the police investigation.

However in Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper 12 August 1888;-

The difficulty of identification arose out of the brutal treatment to which the deceased was manifestly subjected, she being throttled while held down, and the face and head so swollen and distorted in consequence that her real features are not discernible.

Clearly someone, somewhere had suspected she was throttled yet strangely the previous paragraph in the same Lloyd’s article states;-

A perplexing feature in connection with the outrage is the number of injuries on the young woman's body. That the stabs were from a weapon shaped like a bayonet is almost established beyond doubt. The wound over the heart was alone sufficient to kill, and death must have occurred as soon as that was inflicted. Unless the perpetrator was a madman, or suffering to an unusual extent from drink delirium, no tangible explanation can be given of the reason for inflicting the other 38 injuries, some of which almost seem as if they were due to thrusts and cuts from a penknife. On the other hand, if the lesser wounds were given before the one fatal injury the cries of the deceased must have been heard by those who, at the time of the outrage, were sleeping within a few yards of the spot where the deed was committed.

Had nobody connected the throttling with the silence of the attack ?

[Wickerman]

Phillips examined the witnesses at the scene and the police searched them, the relative order they gave testimony doesn't really effect that.

Indeed he did, but he did not search the police nor the medical men - Blackwell & Mr Johnston.
PC Lamb, Mr Johnston, Dr Blackwell & Spooner were the only ones involved in this, so if the answer resides with either of these gentlemen Dr Phillips would not learn about it.

Why would Dr Phillips state it was a mystery if there was a logical blood transference explanation?

Unless you think the blood came from another person, then it is obviously blood transfer from the victim - Phillips will have known that much.
The mystery is, by what means.

Naturally he will consider that she did it herself, but knowing how suddenly the victim must have lost consciousness, and the fact blood was on both sides of the wrist (inside & out), then he must have ruled that out.
If this was the 'obvious' solution, it wouldn't be a mystery to him - would it!

Therefore, as the answer did not surface from his investigating the citizenry (including Spooner), then the answer must reside with one of the other medical men, or a policeman.

Do you agree with this logic?

By the way, Tom Wescott theorized it was Mr Johnston who was responsible, for what that is worth.

[curious4]

Blood on hand

I haven't forgotten anything. What Lamb deposed is completely independent of whether the Coroner had seen the body or not.

Once again;- if Lamb had touched the blood before touching the woman he would have said that whilst giving his testimony.

Hello Mr Lucky,

Have you considered the possibility of Liz regaining consciousness and putting her hand to her throat? Provided Jack was the killer, normally there would have been a second cut which would have finished her off quickly, but as she bled to death comparatively slowly, perhaps there was a chance that she did wake up for a second or two before fainting again due to loss of blood. Hand then falls to the position in which it was found with blood on it.

Best wishes,
C4

[Fisherman]

Hello Mr Lucky,

Have you considered the possibility of Liz regaining consciousness and putting her hand to her throat? Provided Jack was the killer, normally there would have been a second cut which would have finished her off quickly, but as she bled to death comparatively slowly, perhaps there was a chance that she did wake up for a second or two before fainting again due to loss of blood. Hand then falls to the position in which it was found with blood on it.

Best wishes,
C4

Problem: She would have needed to first put the back of her hand against the wound in her neck, whereupon she would have needed to turn the hand and get it bloodied on the other side too, before letting the hand fall down in the position it was found.
Even if she did accomplish this rather remarkable feat - why would the blood be set off in the shape of "small, oblong clots"?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Jon Guy]

Problem: She would have needed to first put the back of her hand against the wound in her neck, whereupon she would have needed to turn the hand and get it bloodied on the other side too, before letting the hand fall down in the position it was found.
Even if she did accomplish this rather remarkable feat - why would the blood be set off in the shape of "small, oblong clots"?

Hi Christer

It`s a good point by Curious. I have always assumed that this blood transfer was simply due to her raising her hand to her throat, and got a couple of spurts of arterial blood on her.
There would be no need to turn the hand to get it on both sides if her hand went to the throat side on, especially if she was falling, been held down, or struggling to rise when she raised her hand.
I suppose she needn`t have raised her hand, just getting caught by an arterial spurt would do it. The spurts would account for the the clot, and oblong because they were hitting her arm at speed and not just dripping on her.

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer

It`s a good point by Curious. I have always assumed that this blood transfer was simply due to her raising her hand to her throat, and got a couple of spurts of arterial blood on her.
There would be no need to turn the hand to get it on both sides if her hand went to the throat side on, especially if she was falling, been held down, or struggling to rise when she raised her hand.
I suppose she needn`t have raised her hand, just getting caught by an arterial spurt would do it. The spurts would account for the the clot, and oblong because they were hitting her arm at speed and not just dripping on her.

Well, thatīs how we must perceive things if it was arterial blood spurting on her, I guess. However, if this was the case, then why was no jet of blood found on the ground?
Otherwise, yes, oblong clots could easily be formed by spurting blood, if hitting an area at some speed or in a slant angle to it. But just like I say, then we would have a jet of blood on the ground too. Unless, of course, the blood flowing from her neck wound disguised it. That all seems a very complicated guess to me, Iīm afraid. We would have to imagine a situation where she got the blood on her hand while falling, since Stride ended up lying with the cut carotid facing the ground.
So, if she got cut, raised her right arm to her throat, angled it so the side of it allowed for the blood to hit the hand on both palm side and back side and get set off in small, oblong clots, and then fell into the position in which she was found, then you may be right. But it also predisposes that the jet of blood that hit her hand shot out in a direction so as to be subsequently covered by the blood flowing from her neck and running away alongside the yard.

Phillips said the blood was a complete mystery. He would have been right. I also think that IF the blood had been spurted onto the hand, hitting both backside and front, then the SIDE of the hand would have been bloodied too - and then, Phillips would NOT have spoken of a mystery. It would have been a case of probable blood-spurting from the artery.

Just my take, of course!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Mr Lucky]

Indeed he did, but he did not search the police nor the medical men - Blackwell & Mr Johnston.
PC Lamb, Mr Johnston, Dr Blackwell & Spooner were the only ones involved in this, so if the answer resides with either of these gentlemen Dr Phillips would not learn about it.

Well that's where I have to disagree, surely before publicly declaring it a mystery, he would simply ask them - did you touch any blood before touching her hand?

Unless you think the blood came from another person, then it is obviously blood transfer from the victim - Phillips will have known that much.
The mystery is, by what means.

Naturally he will consider that she did it herself, but knowing how suddenly the victim must have lost consciousness, and the fact blood was on both sides of the wrist (inside & out), then he must have ruled that out.
If this was the 'obvious' solution, it wouldn't be a mystery to him - would it!

Therefore, as the answer did not surface from his investigating the citizenry (including Spooner), then the answer must reside with one of the other medical men, or a policeman.

Do you agree with this logic?

Err No, Clearly the transfer could be caused by the killer, but the problem then is if the crime is being looked at as one in which the killer had been interrupted, and if the killer didn't even have time to lie her down on her back in preparation for attacking her abdomen then why would he have time to transferred blood to her hand (which doesn't happen with the other killings).

The problem is fitting all of these notions together -

Interrupted killing
Cachous in left hand
Blood on right hand

If the killer wasn't interrupted and the scene was staged then the problems with the above disappear - end of mystery.

By the way, Tom Wescott theorized it was Mr Johnston who was responsible, for what that is worth.

Ok, I'll try and find out a bit more.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Curious4

Hello Mr Lucky,

Have you considered the possibility of Liz regaining consciousness and putting her hand to her throat?

Ok, but why had she clung on to the cachous?

Provided Jack was the killer, normally there would have been a second cut which would have finished her off quickly

The nature of the throats wounds on all of the victims need further comparison, however it appears to me, that there is no standard method employed by the killer, certainly with Tabram, Nichols and Chapman the throat wounds are quite different.

but as she bled to death comparatively slowly, perhaps there was a chance that she did wake up for a second or two before fainting again due to loss of blood. Hand then falls to the position in which it was found with blood on it.

Perhaps, is this notion why her chin was checked for blood?, I think this would provide a better explanation if the blood was only on her fingers on the inside of her hand.

[Mr Lucky]

Well, thatīs how we must perceive things if it was arterial blood spurting on her, I guess. However, if this was the case, then why was no jet of blood found on the ground?
Otherwise, yes, oblong clots could easily be formed by spurting blood, if hitting an area at some speed or in a slant angle to it. But just like I say, then we would have a jet of blood on the ground too. Unless, of course, the blood flowing from her neck wound disguised it. That all seems a very complicated guess to me, Iīm afraid. We would have to imagine a situation where she got the blood on her hand while falling, since Stride ended up lying with the cut carotid facing the ground.
So, if she got cut, raised her right arm to her throat, angled it so the side of it allowed for the blood to hit the hand on both palm side and back side and get set off in small, oblong clots, and then fell into the position in which she was found, then you may be right. But it also predisposes that the jet of blood that hit her hand shot out in a direction so as to be subsequently covered by the blood flowing from her neck and running away alongside the yard.

Phillips said the blood was a complete mystery. He would have been right. I also think that IF the blood had been spurted onto the hand, hitting both backside and front, then the SIDE of the hand would have been bloodied too - and then, Phillips would NOT have spoken of a mystery. It would have been a case of probable blood-spurting from the artery.

Just my take, of course!

Hi Fisherman,

I largely agree, any arterial spray that hit her hand would leave a noticeable trace on her clothes/somewhere.

Again this is something Phillips would surely consider before declaring it a mystery?

[Wickerman]

Well that's where I have to disagree, surely before publicly declaring it a mystery, he would simply ask them - did you touch any blood before touching her hand?

It is a mystery for him at the time he is being asked, that is all we are required to understand.

Err No, Clearly the transfer could be caused by the killer, but the problem then is if the crime is being looked at as one in which the killer had been interrupted, and if the killer didn't even have time to lie her down on her back in preparation for attacking her abdomen then why would he have time to transferred blood to her hand (which doesn't happen with the other killings).

So, you answered that objection yourself then, and you think Phillips was not able to do the same?

If the killer wasn't interrupted and the scene was staged then the problems with the above disappear - end of mystery.

Ok then, is that your theory, that the whole scene was staged?

Phillips said the blood was a complete mystery. He would have been right. I also think that IF the blood had been spurted onto the hand, hitting both backside and front, then the SIDE of the hand would have been bloodied too - and then, Phillips would NOT have spoken of a mystery. It would have been a case of probable blood-spurting from the artery.

Phillips had to have considered any possibilities involving both the killer and the witnesses manhandling the body in the yard. Naturally, he would not question a policeman, and would likely expect another medical man to indicate that they were responsible.

The only policeman to whom suspicion could be attached was not questioned directly on the matter, and may not have even been in the courtroom as the subject evolved.

Have you considered the possibility of Liz regaining consciousness and putting her hand to her throat? ....

She may have bled to death rather slowly but there is no indication she was conscious. The fact she retained hold of the cachous, and that apparently there was no blood on her left hand would suggest she was not conscious, wouldn't it?

Isn't it natural that a person bleeding from the throat will raise both hands to feel her neck?, this would also require her rolling onto her back however momentary, but her clothes show no such activity, nor of her even raising her left hand.
There is just nothing to indicate her being conscious that I can see.

No matter how many alternate scenario's are proposed, the action of a bloodied hand of another person feeling for a pulse must be the least complicated and most likely solution.

[Jon Guy]

Well, thatīs how we must perceive things if it was arterial blood spurting on her, I guess. However, if this was the case, then why was no jet of blood found on the ground?

Otherwise, yes, oblong clots could easily be formed by spurting blood, if hitting an area at some speed or in a slant angle to it. But just like I say, then we would have a jet of blood on the ground too.

There was a pool of clotted blood on the ground by the body.

Phillips said the blood was a complete mystery.

I believe Phillips was notorious for been non-commital on things he was not certain of. I think he said something non-commital about the cachous, too.

I`m not sure about the blood having to hit the side of the hand, it`s a smaller target and the arterial spray would be in pulses.
Stride need only put her right hand on the ground as she was held or pushed down.

[curious4]

Liquid, then clotted

Problem: She would have needed to first put the back of her hand against the wound in her neck, whereupon she would have needed to turn the hand and get it bloodied on the other side too, before letting the hand fall down in the position it was found.
Even if she did accomplish this rather remarkable feat - why would the blood be set off in the shape of "small, oblong clots"?

All the best,
Fisherman

Hello Fisherman,

If she put up her hand almost directly after the cut, she would get liquid blood on her hands which would have clotted after she had dropped her hand.

Mr Lucky,

The blood was on the hand on her chest, cachous in the hand on the ground. Split-second action, thumb and finger remain clenched - doubt she would have got any air with everything cut through, same effect as throttling? (That is speculation though!)

Best wishes,
C4

[curious4]

Conscious

It is a mystery for him at the time he is being asked, that is all we are required to understand.




So, you answered that objection yourself then, and you think Phillips was not able to do the same?



Ok then, is that your theory, that the whole scene was staged?




Phillips had to have considered any possibilities involving both the killer and the witnesses manhandling the body in the yard. Naturally, he would not question a policeman, and would likely expect another medical man to indicate that they were responsible.

The only policeman to whom suspicion could be attached was not questioned directly on the matter, and may not have even been in the courtroom as the subject evolved.



She may have bled to death rather slowly but there is no indication she was conscious. The fact she retained hold of the cachous, and that apparently there was no blood on her left hand would suggest she was not conscious, wouldn't it?

Isn't it natural that a person bleeding from the throat will raise both hands to feel her neck?, this would also require her rolling onto her back however momentary, but her clothes show no such activity, nor of her even raising her left hand.
There is just nothing to indicate her being conscious that I can see.

No matter how many alternate scenario's are proposed, the action of a bloodied hand of another person feeling for a pulse must be the least complicated and most likely solution.

Hello Wickerman,

Wasn't saying that she was wide awake and jumping. She could probably manage to lift a hand while semi-conscious - unless, of course, her hand was already near her throat when it was cut, perhaps trying to pull at the scarf, but I don't think that is at all likely.

Best wishes,
C4