What did the copy-cat killer copy?

[caz]

Stride was certainly a copycat. The cause of death was a cut throat - Jack strangled his victims and then tried to decapitate them, he didn't "slash their throats" as Hollywood would like you to think.

Hi DP,

I'm sorry but that makes no sense. How could Stride's murder 'certainly' have been a copycat crime when you say in the next breath that there was no resemblance to the murders supposedly being copied?

We are constantly told that Stride's killer had plenty of time to stay and mutilate her if he had had the need or desire to do so. Well this would have applied even more to a copycat, who would surely have attempted at least one 'trademark' slash to her abdomen if he had a second to spare. So what's it to be? No time for her killer to do anything more than the single fatal cut to the throat? Or the poorest excuse for a copycat since I tried to do an impression of Victoria Beckham?

Location, MO and lack of signature, as well as forensic evidence all point to someone killing her and making it look like a Ripper crime.

You mean failing to make it look like a ripper crime. If a copycat had wanted to succeed, and had succeeded, I submit many a Stride excluder would have been fooled into including her. I've seen posters admitting they would have included her as a ripper victim like a shot if only she had been ripped just a little bit.

Love,

Caz
X

[Mr Lucky]

It's all about what you find more plausible: that a killer made tweaks to his MO over the course of a killing spree, or that a killer would never make tweaks to his MO over the course of a killing spree.

Hi Damaso,

Well, that's a good way of putting it. But, the point I'm curious about is where did the ideas behind the tweaks come from?

Eddowes was mutilated differently than Chapman, showed no signs of strangulation. Likewise MJK. I personally find it more plausible that one killer adjusted his style of takedown/was forced to cut differently in Mitre Square/didn't have a chance to kill indoors before MJK than that there were multiple mutilation killers who could commit public crimes in complete silence without being detected. Others here disagree.

Fair enough.

Lynn Cates, the foremost proponent of Eddowes being a copycat, says there was a murder outside of London a few days prior with facial mutilations, which was erroneously reported as a ripper killing, and the killer may have been trying to imitate this. Or, in my view, the killer wanted to cut a body part off, had failed to cut off Chapman's head, was trying to cut off Eddowes's nose, and eventually succeeded in cutting off Kelly's breasts.

The murder outside London, would be the murder of Jane Beadmore of Gateshead. This was dismissed as a potential ripper killing almost immediately, by both the police and press, and certainly pre-double event.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Dig

Tweaks and possible factors that could cause inconsistentcies. Lighting, fatigue, alcohol consumption, it goes on. It not need be a different person to be different. Although, respecting the possibilty of a different person(s) is a wise course of action in my book.

There are some factors beyond the killers control as you say, but why had the killer of Nichols changed the knife he used when he murdered Chapman?
A different weapon used in a different way, yet the two killings are so superficially alike in other ways that this is usually overlooked. Of all the Whitechapel murders these two are generally considered most alike.

[Mr Lucky]

I submit many a Stride excluder would have been fooled into including her. I've seen posters admitting they would have included her as a ripper victim like a shot if only she had been ripped just a little bit.

Hi Caz,

If she had been ripped a little bit, would we think her killer had been interrupted ?

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Mr. Lucky.

Hi Dig



There are some factors beyond the killers control as you say, but why had the killer of Nichols changed the knife he used when he murdered Chapman?
A different weapon used in a different way, yet the two killings are so superficially alike in other ways that this is usually overlooked. Of all the Whitechapel murders these two are generally considered most alike.

Why must the killer use the same knife in the same way every time? I might suggest an aspect to consider is motivation. What were the motivations for each murder? That may help raise or lower the likelhood of a copycat.

[andy1867]

Excusing my ignorance..which is quite formidable, How much information regarding the injuries to the victims was in the public domain during the time frame the murders were committed in.
As a copycat killer you would obviously have to have something to copy,
Its just that ive got this vision in me head where the copycat killer kills Stride, then finds a copy of the Telegraph or summatt (probably lying on Ghoulstone st) and thinks "Bugger!!!" ....So attacks Eddowes.....

[Hunter]

In less than an hour?

[andy1867]

In less than an hour?

He's obviously reading while walking.....

[Michael W Richards]

The notion that one or more of the Whitechapel murders were copy-cat killings is immensely popular in some quarters, and so I would like to ask those people the following three quick questions.

1) Which of the 11 Whitechapel murders do you believe are copy cat killings.
2) What exactly did the killer copy in that instance.
3) Where did the killer gain the information from, which enabled him/her to do the actual copying?

Thanks in advance.

Hi Mr Lucky,

I believe its possible that there were murders within the "5" that may have been attempts at mimicry, if not copying...

1. Possibly Mary Jane Kelly, less probable but possible, Kate Eddowes.
2. I believe it was the removal of internal organs, seen in the Chapman case and intimated in the Nichols case.
3. The news.

The reason I believe its possible is because the focus in those first 2 murders is not present in either of the subsequent 2 I mention above. The focus in those earlier cases was the abdomen. Almost every action performed with the knife in that Hanbury backyard seemed, to the medical experts, to have been en route to achieving the final objective, in other words, a minimum of cuts that were superfluous.

In Kates and Marys case, there is no way to determine what any final objectives may have been, due to the plethora of superfluous cuts. And, a curious departure from any specific interest in the Uterus, the objective of Annies killer.

Best regards

[The Good Michael]

Why does no one pose the theory that it was one killer who attempted to make it look as there were 3 or more different ones? That is as likely as mimicry. I am seriously asking this question. It is of course a rhetorical one, but it makes as much sense as a copycat.

Mike

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo

Why does no one pose the theory that it was one killer who attempted to make it look as there were 3 or more different ones? That is as likely as mimicry. I am seriously asking this question. It is of course a rhetorical one, but it makes as much sense as a copycat.

Mike

Because we care way more about the details than the killer ever did. Excuse me. Killer(s).

[Michael W Richards]

Why does no one pose the theory that it was one killer who attempted to make it look as there were 3 or more different ones? That is as likely as mimicry. I am seriously asking this question. It is of course a rhetorical one, but it makes as much sense as a copycat.

Mike

The obvious answer has been given Mike, they do not all have a similar detectable final objective, determined by the actions taken and the result achieved. The killer of Annie for example, again obviously, was interested in obtaining what he took. So he killed the woman to enable that goal, and cut what was necessary to do so...the murder itself was likely swift and hardly satisfactory to someone bent on experiencing death through the victims eyes, or some such murder based objective.

The objective in that murder was post mortem, and the similarities with Pollys murder, in that the preliminary steps seem almost identical.

Can you say that Mary Kelly was killed by a focused killer? Can you say that by the killers actions her heart was in fact his ultimate goal? Can you say that Kates killer ultimately sought from her what was taken...again, using the cuts made as the roadmap? Clearly anyone ultimately interested in getting at Kates kidney, and with some skill and anatomical knowledge, would have done so while she was face down.

Theres plenty of confusion and amateurish actions in those two murders, there appears to be none in Annies.

A simple explanation for the possible mimicry is that the man who killed Annie was prevented from killing again, thus, we never again see that same technique and focus. And by mimicking actions taken by a phantom killer still at large the murderer enjoys the anonymity for the real motives for his actions. What person in that area at that point in time, who finds himself committing murder wouldnt have attempted to replicate a Ripper murder...its like a alibi gift for him,..or her.

Cheers

[The Good Michael]

Mike,

I can say that someone could have planned to kill people with some similarities, such as approach and speed, but also could have changed the details. Good actors can play different roles in the same play with different accents, different character, and different movements and can be totally unrecognizable stylistically from role to role. Why could a murderer not do the same, change it up a bit? There was plenty of time between killings in which to decide what to do differently if one wanted to.

Then again, different knives, different lighting, different moods, different states of inebriation, different levels of police presence, different physical issues...all these things could account for any perceived differences....or there are a dozen mimics running around.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Because we care way more about the details than the killer ever did. Excuse me. Killer(s).

That is correct.

Mike

[Mr Lucky]

Why must the killer use the same knife in the same way every time? I might suggest an aspect to consider is motivation. What were the motivations for each murder? That may help raise or lower the likelhood of a copycat.

Hi Dig,

We cannot be sure what his motivations were, we can test ideas and see how well they fit. For example, the believe is generally held, that the motive for Nichols killer was that he was after her uterus, just like the killer of Chapman; but that doesn't actually fit with the injuries on Nichols, nor the type of knife used on Nichols. So this motive was never suggested until after the Chapman killing, previously the injuries to Nichols abdomen were done by a maniac, and this means that, almost by definition that there was no known motive for them.