What did the copy-cat killer copy?

[Mr Lucky]

The notion that one or more of the Whitechapel murders were copy-cat killings is immensely popular in some quarters, and so I would like to ask those people the following three quick questions.

1) Which of the 11 Whitechapel murders do you believe are copy cat killings.
2) What exactly did the killer copy in that instance.
3) Where did the killer gain the information from, which enabled him/her to do the actual copying?

Thanks in advance.

[caz]

Good idea for a thread, Mr Lucky.

There should be plenty of takers, considering how often we see views expressed that the ripper probably had only two or three victims. The rest were presumably down to killers who deliberately got on the bandwagon. I can't see any featuring abdominal mutilation being purely coincidental.

If Tabram wasn't a ripper victim (and I currently think she was), I would say her murder influenced the man who went on to kill Nichols, although he evidently wasn't trying to copy the actual injuries.

I don't see any obvious signs of a conscious effort to imitate a previous murder; I see someone who goes with the flow each time and does what takes his fancy when opportunity knocks, with the result that some of the injuries will be similar to one or more of the previous cases, while others will not. Even where two murders - eg that of Nichols and Chapman - might appear strikingly similar, this doesn't necessarily indicate a compulsion to produce carbon copies (as would be the case if someone was desperately trying to avoid the gallows by imitating another killer's reported mutilations). It might just be because there were only a few days between the murders or the victims played ball in the same way.

Love,

Caz
X

[DarkPassenger]

Stride was certainly a copycat. The cause of death was a cut throat - Jack strangled his victims and then tried to decapitate them, he didn't "slash their throats" as Hollywood would like you to think. Location, MO and lack of signature, as well as forensic evidence all point to someone killing her and making it look like a Ripper crime. Possibly, the "Saucy Jacky postcard" was written by Stride's killer in an effort to link her murder more solidly with JTR.

[andy1867]

I dunno how you differentiate to be honest,
Would the Police of 1888 be able to tell a copycat killing from an original Jack killing?, and though we think we may be able to now, all the evidence we have is reports from folk that err.. didn't...If you get me drift

[Mr Lucky]

Good idea for a thread, Mr Lucky.

There should be plenty of takers, considering how often we see views expressed that the ripper probably had only two or three victims. The rest were presumably down to killers who deliberately got on the bandwagon. I can't see any featuring abdominal mutilation being purely coincidental.

Hi Caz

Thanks for the reply, there's a possibility that the non-C5 could be copy-cat killing too, though it's rarely discussed. For example, there's Francis Coles displaying great similarity with the Alice Mckenzie murder, but there's not a peep about Coles being a copy-cat killing.

If Tabram wasn't a ripper victim (and I currently think she was), I would say her murder influenced the man who went on to kill Nichols, although he evidently wasn't trying to copy the actual injuries.

I would suggest influenced and knowingly copied are going to be hard to separate.

I don't see any obvious signs of a conscious effort to imitate a previous murder; I see someone who goes with the flow each time and does what takes his fancy when opportunity knocks, with the result that some of the injuries will be similar to one or more of the previous cases, while others will not. Even where two murders - eg that of Nichols and Chapman - might appear strikingly similar, this doesn't necessarily indicate a compulsion to produce carbon copies (as would be the case if someone was desperately trying to avoid the gallows by imitating another killer's reported mutilations). It might just be because there were only a few days between the murders or the victims played ball in the same way.

The Nichols/Chapman murder are often seen to be the most alike of the Whitechapel murders, certainly the C5. A point of interest here, is that the killer appears to have asphyxiated both of them in someway, which wasn't reported in the press in connection to the Nichols killing, so therefore a good indication of Chapman's killer was not a copy-cat. But of the two only Chapman has had the attempt to separate the bones in her neck, but this was after it was reported that Nichols nearly had her head cut off, so it appears that the killer is copying something that was suggested by the press not something he actually attempted to do to Nichols, So it's either just a co-incidence or was the killer taking suggestions from what he had read in the press ?

How many co-incidence like that are allowed for them to still remain co-incidences ?

[Mr Lucky]

Stride was certainly a copycat. The cause of death was a cut throat - Jack strangled his victims and then tried to decapitate them, he didn't "slash their throats" as Hollywood would like you to think. Location, MO and lack of signature, as well as forensic evidence all point to someone killing her and making it look like a Ripper crime. Possibly, the "Saucy Jacky postcard" was written by Stride's killer in an effort to link her murder more solidly with JTR.

Hi Darkpassenger

Thanks for the reply. What you appear to be claiming here is that Stride was killed by some one other than Jack the ripper, fair enough, but that isn't quite the same thing as her being a copy-cat killing.

forensic evidence all point to someone killing her and making it look like a Ripper crime

How has he made it look like a ripper crime ?, If, as you claim, Jack strangled his victims and then tried to decapitate them, why didn't Strides killer do that ?

the "Saucy Jacky postcard" was written by Stride's killer in an effort to link her murder more solidly with JTR

Surely the Saucy Jack post card must have been written by the person who wrote Dear Boss ? Then this would mean the Stride killing was pre-planned, so why doesn't it look more like the other killings ?

[Mr Lucky]

I dunno how you differentiate to be honest,
Would the Police of 1888 be able to tell a copycat killing from an original Jack killing?, and though we think we may be able to now, all the evidence we have is reports from folk that err.. didn't...If you get me drift

Hi Andy1867

Yes, I do see what you mean and ultimately the question is unanswerable, however if someone suggests that MJK (just for example) is a copycat killing, then they should be able to point out something that's actually been copied from the previous murders, rather than list what they think shows that it's not a Ripper killing.

The danger is the argument becomes - this killing is slightly different, therefore it's not Jack the Ripper, therefore it's a copy-cat killing.

I'm not really trying to look at whether this particular victim or that particular victim was murdered by another killer or by Jack the ripper, but examine the concept behind the idea of a copy cat killer.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo all.

I find the notion of the copycat unlikely. Especially murders that involve mutilations. Another sicko say in "MJK's" case I can buy more than tried to make it look like "JTR". My opinion obviously. "JTR" strangled his victims? Well some maybe. Eddowes was not. Stride either. Who can tell with "MJK". Too much destruction. So if he strangled or choked or whatever Nichols and Chapman, why not Eddowes? If Eddowes can be a victim of the same killer with no strangling why not Stride also? I'm speaking specifically about that point only. For clarity. And I'm not sure about the attempted decapitation thing. Seems it would've been not much more effort to remove the head completely if the desire was strong. There is a dissertation, unless my memory fails me, involving press reports that stated incorrectly mutilation aspects for a murder that then appeared on the following. Example, it was in a paper that Eddowes' heart was removed when it wasn't. Then we have "MJK" missing hers. Although that is debatable. Can't remember the title of the article and have no time to search for it.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Murders with mutilations.

It's not like pulling a trigger. The smell alone might be enough to make one falter who wasn't sincere in their efforts. Let alone sticking your hands in another person. If a murder with extensive mutilations wasn't by the same individual then who ever did it was just as sick and f'ed up as the other guy. In the same small area doing something very similar in a relatively short period of time. Okay I'm done.

[c.d.]

Whoever would have thought that slashing a woman's throat and taking out her internal organs would have become trendy? Then again, I can't really explain Beanie Babies either.

c.d.

[Mr Lucky]

Hi Dig

Thanks for the answers

I find the notion of the copycat unlikely. Especially murders that involve mutilations.

OK, What about the other murders, anything copy-cat-ish about any of them ?

"JTR" strangled his victims? Well some maybe. Eddowes was not. Stride either. Who can tell with "MJK". Too much destruction. So if he strangled or choked or whatever Nichols and Chapman, why not Eddowes? If Eddowes can be a victim of the same killer with no strangling why not Stride also?

I think the problem with the strangling/throttling aspect (as far as the killer is concerned) is the amount of time it takes, if speed was important and to minimise the likely hood of getting caught it should be, then perhaps that's the bit he might think about changing.

There is a dissertation, unless my memory fails me, involving press reports that stated incorrectly mutilation aspects for a murder that then appeared on the following. Example, it was in a paper that Eddowes' heart was removed when it wasn't. Then we have "MJK" missing hers. Although that is debatable. Can't remember the title of the article and have no time to search for it

That's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Another example, the press mentioned the message supposedly seen at Hanbury street '5 dead - 15 more and I'll give myself up ' which wasn't actually left by the killer, but then the double event night produced the GSG...

[Mr Lucky]

Whoever would have thought that slashing a woman's throat and taking out her internal organs would have become trendy? Then again, I can't really explain Beanie Babies either.

c.d.

Hi C.D

It was only trendy for a short spell, normal service was resumed with Mylett, Mckenzie and Coles

[Damaso Marte]

It's all about what you find more plausible: that a killer made tweaks to his MO over the course of a killing spree, or that a killer would never make tweaks to his MO over the course of a killing spree.

Eddowes was mutilated differently than Chapman, showed no signs of strangulation. Likewise MJK. I personally find it more plausible that one killer adjusted his style of takedown/was forced to cut differently in Mitre Square/didn't have a chance to kill indoors before MJK than that there were multiple mutilation killers who could commit public crimes in complete silence without being detected. Others here disagree.

Lynn Cates, the foremost proponent of Eddowes being a copycat, says there was a murder outside of London a few days prior with facial mutilations, which was erroneously reported as a ripper killing, and the killer may have been trying to imitate this. Or, in my view, the killer wanted to cut a body part off, had failed to cut off Chapman's head, was trying to cut off Eddowes's nose, and eventually succeeded in cutting off Kelly's breasts.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

No thanks needed.

Hi Dig

Thanks for the answers

Thank you.

OK, What about the other murders, anything copy-cat-ish about any of them ?

Mackenzie looks to be the most likely to have been murdered by "JTR". Something almost reminisent of Nichols. Aside from that, her mutilations are what I would think more likely of a copycat. Throats been slit, check. But what is lacking is the full plunge into the inside. One might say, a bit apprehensive maybe. Which might indicate a first attempt at said task. Mackenzies' mutilations appear to be less severe than Nichols'. I would note that as a nudge in the direction of a different individual. It had been a while possibly since "JTR" had killed in this manner, but I would speculate he wouldn't have underpreformed compared to the Nichols' murder. If adequate time was available. Stopping on this cause I'll continue to go, endlessly.

I think the problem with the strangling/throttling aspect (as far as the killer is concerned) is the amount of time it takes, if speed was important and to minimise the likely hood of getting caught it should be, then perhaps that's the bit he might think about changing.

Well well. This is the type of thing I try and get at without much apparent success. I've refered to this as form giving way to function. It might also be applicable to the mutilations also.

That's the sort of thing I'm looking for. Another example, the press mentioned the message supposedly seen at Hanbury street '5 dead - 15 more and I'll give myself up ' which wasn't actually left by the killer, but then the double event night produced the GSG...

Sorry I don't recall the title. It's been over a year since I read it. If you find it please let me know. Unless it came to me in a dream. That happens sometimes. Then the stuffs come true. My prescient powers are second to one. Funny too.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Damaso Marte.

[QUOTE=Damaso Marte;271282]It's all about what you find more plausible: that a killer made tweaks to his MO over the course of a killing spree, or that a killer would never make tweaks to his MO over the course of a killing spree.

Tweaks and possible factors that could cause inconsistentcies. Lighting, fatigue, alcohol consumption, it goes on. It not need be a different person to be different. Although, respecting the possibilty of a different person(s) is a wise course of action in my book.

Eddowes was mutilated differently than Chapman, showed no signs of strangulation. Likewise MJK. I personally find it more plausible that one killer adjusted his style of takedown/was forced to cut differently in Mitre Square/didn't have a chance to kill indoors before MJK than that there were multiple mutilation killers who could commit public crimes in complete silence without being detected. Others here disagree.

As due I. But there isn't quite enough data to become inflexible. If anything it is a good thing to have people postulating on the different avenues.

Lynn Cates, the foremost proponent of Eddowes being a copycat, says there was a murder outside of London a few days prior with facial mutilations, which was erroneously reported as a ripper killing, and the killer may have been trying to imitate this. Or, in my view, the killer wanted to cut a body part off, had failed to cut off Chapman's head, was trying to cut off Eddowes's nose, and eventually succeeded in cutting off Kelly's breasts.

Mr. Cates is a wise cookie. He catches some serious flack but he is far from unreasonable. He's not the baseless type. I would also bring up Carrie Brown in New York. That's an interesting bit as far as I know about it. That smacks of a copycat type thing. Then again... Are you refering to the female killed by her boyfriend? that Cornhole attributed to Sickert that was proven obviously not anything to do with "JTR".