Why the Gap?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I haven’t raised the question of time.

Someone did.

Not me.

And there’s no evidence that he didn’t keep organs in a bolt hole or that Long couldn’t simply have missed the apron first time.


Well then, we have a very different approach to evidence!
The best evidence we have is that the apron was not there at 2:20.

Possibly, but it’s just as valid to question both sides.


But if the killer lived locally, as you believe, he would have had to have got those parts home somehow. I don’t see why you completely reject the suggestion of a bolt hole. A place where he wouldn’t have had to deal with nosey family members or friends.


If my memory serves me correctly, the person who first suggested a bolt-hole explained that what he meant was the home of a friend or relative, not a place of his own.

I don’t know about that but I just take a ‘bolt hole’ to mean a room or premises that were available to the killer that were not his everyday dwelling. So it could be a rented room, or a disused building, or a shed, or a workshop, or a store room.

What I don't understand is why the idea that he had a bolt hole in Spitalfields contradicts my idea that he lived in Spitalfields!

It doesn’t.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Just being questioned and disagreed with hardly qualifies as ‘all hell breaking loose’ is something of an exaggeration. There’s nothing far fetched about a man catching a train. There’s nothing far fetched about a serial killer having a bolt hole. There’s nothing far fetched about a police man missing (or not noticing) a piece of rag in the early hours of the morning.

And…..there’s nothing far fetched about the possibility of the killer living in Spitalfields. We don’t know.

I haven’t raised the question of time.

Someone did.

And there’s no evidence that he didn’t keep organs in a bolt hole or that Long couldn’t simply have missed the apron first time.


Well then, we have a very different approach to evidence!
The best evidence we have is that the apron was not there at 2:20.


But if the killer lived locally, as you believe, he would have had to have got those parts home somehow. I don’t see why you completely reject the suggestion of a bolt hole. A place where he wouldn’t have had to deal with nosey family members or friends.


If my memory serves me correctly, the person who first suggested a bolt-hole explained that what he meant was the home of a friend or relative, not a place of his own.

What I don't understand is why the idea that he had a bolt hole in Spitalfields contradicts my idea that he lived in Spitalfields!

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

HI PI
Where and what do you think the ripper was doing in the hour or so in between the murder of Eddowes and when the apron was found?

Hi AB

Your name reminds me of the old Abbey National!

My theory is that he left Mitre Square via Mitre Street (although some here think Church Passage or another exit more likely because he would have wanted to avoid bumping into Watkins).

I think he left at about 1.42 a.m.

He turned left down Aldgate High Street, which meant that Pc Watkins could not be approaching him.

After Aldgate High Street becomes Whitechapel Rd, he turned left down Goulston St.

My guess is that as he was approaching Wentworth Dwellngs, he spotted PC Long, who was due there at around 1:50, and went home to deposit the kidney and lie low.

Another possibility is that he just went straight home, without seeing PC Long.

At some time between 2:20 and 2:50, he went to Wentworth Dwellings.

Well, if I'm right about that, you can work it out for yourself: he couldn't have lived very far away - and that means somewhere in Spitalfields.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I did not use the words 'beyond a reasonable doubt,' 'conclusive evidence,' incontrovertible evidence,' or even 'hard evidence.'

And I haven’t said that you did use any of those phrases. But surely you can see that ‘overwhelming evidence’ implies something close to a certainty?

Since two of the murders were committed in Spitalfields, and the bloody apron was found there, it's not exactly a provocative suggestion to say that he was living there.

And I haven’t said that it’s a provocative suggestion or even that I couldn’t have been the case just that there could be an alternative explanation.

I change my mind when I've seen evidence or reasoned argument that convinces me.

I changed my mind about the time of death in the Hanbury Street murder after an exchange with a very condescending individual on another forum, after re-examining the evidence.

But nothing anyone has said here in response to my three points has seemed to me at all convincing.

And there’s nothing wrong with disagreeing.

My first point is that the murderer travelled in a north-easterly direction to Spitalfields when he must have been returning to base.

The first objection was that he may have had a bolt hole.
I suppose someone else might say that Sir William Gull had a bolt hole, but in any case it is far-fetched to suggest that the murderer went with Eddowes' kidney and her bloodstained faeces-covered apron to a relative or friend's house.

Now, when I give his precise route to Spitalfields, you raise the question of timing, and what is actually meant by 1.42 a.m.
I think it's obvious that what I meant is that the murderer left the Square about two minutes before he expected Pc Watkins to enter it.
I didn't say whether I meant 1:42:00 or 1:42:30.
It's just an approximation.
I don't see how your raising the question of time has any bearing on the validity of my argument.

I mentioned the fact that he would have known (although I'm not sure that word is permitted, so I'll amend it to 'had reason to believe') that Pc Watkins would not be in front of him when he turned into Aldgate High Street.
He must have noticed Pc Harvey going down Church Passage at 1:40 (and in case of any misunderstanding, I don't mean necessarily 1:40:59) and this, I suggest, would have put him off leaving via Church Passage.

I haven’t raised the question of time.

My second point concerns Pc Long's testimony that the apron was not in Goulston Street at about 2.20 a.m., which suggests strongly that the murderer lived nearby.
In addition to the bolt-hole, we've heard that Long may have lied that he checked the entrance at 2.20.
I'm sorry, but I'm going by the evidence.
There is no reason to think that the murderer kept organs in a bolt-hole or that Long pretended to have checked at 2.20.

And there’s no evidence that he didn’t keep organs in a bolt hole or that Long couldn’t simply have missed the apron first time.

There is earwitness and medical evidence that the murderer left at about 5.45 a.m.
It is fanciful to suggest that he then made his way to Dorset (assuming he had played a match there the day before and had another match to play the next day)

You appear to be conflating the Kelly murder with the Nichols murder in regard to Druitt. Druitt is irrelevant as the evidence doesn’t provide him with an alibi. An absolutely proven fact which you appear to have difficulty accepting.

or Pickfords in Broad Street (with blood from Kelly's heart oozing through his clothes) to report for work, or Bethnal Green to the Lechmere residence, where after greeting his wife and nine children, he would presumably go to the pantry to deposit Kelly's heart.

But if the killer lived locally, as you believe, he would have had to have got those parts home somehow. I don’t see why you completely reject the suggestion of a bolt hole. A place where he wouldn’t have had to deal with nosey family members or friends.

Those are actually ridiculously far-fetched suggestions, but when I suggest that the murderer simply walked a short distance to his room in Spitalfields, all hell breaks loose!

Just being questioned and disagreed with hardly qualifies as ‘all hell breaking loose’ is something of an exaggeration. There’s nothing far fetched about a man catching a train. There’s nothing far fetched about a serial killer having a bolt hole. There’s nothing far fetched about a police man missing (or not noticing) a piece of rag in the early hours of the morning.

And…..there’s nothing far fetched about the possibility of the killer living in Spitalfields. We don’t know.

[Abby Normal]

I did not use the words 'beyond a reasonable doubt,' 'conclusive evidence,' incontrovertible evidence,' or even 'hard evidence.'

Since two of the murders were committed in Spitalfields, and the bloody apron was found there, it's not exactly a provocative suggestion to say that he was living there.

I change my mind when I've seen evidence or reasoned argument that convinces me.

I changed my mind about the time of death in the Hanbury Street murder after an exchange with a very condescending individual on another forum, after re-examining the evidence.

But nothing anyone has said here in response to my three points has seemed to me at all convincing.

My first point is that the murderer travelled in a north-easterly direction to Spitalfields when he must have been returning to base.

The first objection was that he may have had a bolt hole.
I suppose someone else might say that Sir William Gull had a bolt hole, but in any case it is far-fetched to suggest that the murderer went with Eddowes' kidney and her bloodstained faeces-covered apron to a relative or friend's house.

Now, when I give his precise route to Spitalfields, you raise the question of timing, and what is actually meant by 1.42 a.m.
I think it's obvious that what I meant is that the murderer left the Square about two minutes before he expected Pc Watkins to enter it.
I didn't say whether I meant 1:42:00 or 1:42:30.
It's just an approximation.
I don't see how your raising the question of time has any bearing on the validity of my argument.

I mentioned the fact that he would have known (although I'm not sure that word is permitted, so I'll amend it to 'had reason to believe') that Pc Watkins would not be in front of him when he turned into Aldgate High Street.
He must have noticed Pc Harvey going down Church Passage at 1:40 (and in case of any misunderstanding, I don't mean necessarily 1:40:59) and this, I suggest, would have put him off leaving via Church Passage.

My second point concerns Pc Long's testimony that the apron was not in Goulston Street at about 2.20 a.m., which suggests strongly that the murderer lived nearby.
In addition to the bolt-hole, we've heard that Long may have lied that he checked the entrance at 2.20.
I'm sorry, but I'm going by the evidence.
There is no reason to think that the murderer kept organs in a bolt-hole or that Long pretended to have checked at 2.20.

There is earwitness and medical evidence that the murderer left at about 5.45 a.m.
It is fanciful to suggest that he then made his way to Dorset (assuming he had played a match there the day before and had another match to play the next day) or Pickfords in Broad Street (with blood from Kelly's heart oozing through his clothes) to report for work, or Bethnal Green to the Lechmere residence, where after greeting his wife and nine children, he would presumably go to the pantry to deposit Kelly's heart.

Those are actually ridiculously far-fetched suggestions, but when I suggest that the murderer simply walked a short distance to his room in Spitalfields, all hell breaks loose!

HI PI
Where and what do you think the ripper was doing in the hour or so in between the murder of Eddowes and when the apron was found?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

You’re making this a simple issue of wording but ‘overwhelming evidence’ would tend to mean that the issue was proven beyond reasonable doubt. That suggested required challenging because it’s not true. The three points that you have produced are ‘strong evidence’ in your opinion. In my opinion they aren’t strong at all. I don’t think that we can deduce where the killer lived. For example, he might have lived elsewhere but came to the East End on business occasionally or to visit family or friends.

I think that an important point to make is that we can’t know how much blood he’d have got on him or what he was wearing at the time. Perhaps he took off his shirt, killed Kelly, wiped himself with the clothing that was found in the fireplace then put his shirt/coat back on. I’m not saying that was exactly what happened but being indoors certainly would have given him more opportunity to at least check himself over for blood. There was also a teapot of course which might have contained water which he could have poured onto his hands before wiping them on the clothing. Speculation of course but whatever did happen I think that you’d agree that the killer wouldn’t have left that room dripping with blood.

I did not use the words 'beyond a reasonable doubt,' 'conclusive evidence,' incontrovertible evidence,' or even 'hard evidence.'

Since two of the murders were committed in Spitalfields, and the bloody apron was found there, it's not exactly a provocative suggestion to say that he was living there.

I change my mind when I've seen evidence or reasoned argument that convinces me.

I changed my mind about the time of death in the Hanbury Street murder after an exchange with a very condescending individual on another forum, after re-examining the evidence.

But nothing anyone has said here in response to my three points has seemed to me at all convincing.

My first point is that the murderer travelled in a north-easterly direction to Spitalfields when he must have been returning to base.

The first objection was that he may have had a bolt hole.
I suppose someone else might say that Sir William Gull had a bolt hole, but in any case it is far-fetched to suggest that the murderer went with Eddowes' kidney and her bloodstained faeces-covered apron to a relative or friend's house.

Now, when I give his precise route to Spitalfields, you raise the question of timing, and what is actually meant by 1.42 a.m.
I think it's obvious that what I meant is that the murderer left the Square about two minutes before he expected Pc Watkins to enter it.
I didn't say whether I meant 1:42:00 or 1:42:30.
It's just an approximation.
I don't see how your raising the question of time has any bearing on the validity of my argument.

I mentioned the fact that he would have known (although I'm not sure that word is permitted, so I'll amend it to 'had reason to believe') that Pc Watkins would not be in front of him when he turned into Aldgate High Street.
He must have noticed Pc Harvey going down Church Passage at 1:40 (and in case of any misunderstanding, I don't mean necessarily 1:40:59) and this, I suggest, would have put him off leaving via Church Passage.

My second point concerns Pc Long's testimony that the apron was not in Goulston Street at about 2.20 a.m., which suggests strongly that the murderer lived nearby.
In addition to the bolt-hole, we've heard that Long may have lied that he checked the entrance at 2.20.
I'm sorry, but I'm going by the evidence.
There is no reason to think that the murderer kept organs in a bolt-hole or that Long pretended to have checked at 2.20.

There is earwitness and medical evidence that the murderer left at about 5.45 a.m.
It is fanciful to suggest that he then made his way to Dorset (assuming he had played a match there the day before and had another match to play the next day) or Pickfords in Broad Street (with blood from Kelly's heart oozing through his clothes) to report for work, or Bethnal Green to the Lechmere residence, where after greeting his wife and nine children, he would presumably go to the pantry to deposit Kelly's heart.

Those are actually ridiculously far-fetched suggestions, but when I suggest that the murderer simply walked a short distance to his room in Spitalfields, all hell breaks loose!

[Herlock Sholmes]

My point was that it is being pedantic to expect someone making a case constantly to qualify his every statement by acknowledging that it is not a proven fact.

In making another point, I said there is 'very strong' evidence or 'the evidence suggests strongly that' (I can't remember my exact words).

If it will make you happy, I will amend my 'overwhelming evidence' to 'strong evidence'.

I presented what I consider to be a very strong case that he lived in Spitalfields.

Your responses included, 'It still doesn’t come close to proving that he lived in Spitalfields though; It’s something that you can’t possibly know'.

I didn't say that I 'know'!

Yet your final remark was: 'It’s a fact that being indoors allowed the killer an opportunity to clean up. He couldn’t have cleaned up in the street.'

As you know, there is an story that the murderer once washed his hands in a washbasin in Dorset Street.
That doesn't prove he ever did, but it seems there were washbasins in Dorset Street, via which the murderer necessarily left Miller's Court.

I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't recall that there was a washbasin in Kelly's room.

If there was not, how could he have cleaned up in her room?

You’re making this a simple issue of wording but ‘overwhelming evidence’ would tend to mean that the issue was proven beyond reasonable doubt. That suggested required challenging because it’s not true. The three points that you have produced are ‘strong evidence’ in your opinion. In my opinion they aren’t strong at all. I don’t think that we can deduce where the killer lived. For example, he might have lived elsewhere but came to the East End on business occasionally or to visit family or friends.

I think that an important point to make is that we can’t know how much blood he’d have got on him or what he was wearing at the time. Perhaps he took off his shirt, killed Kelly, wiped himself with the clothing that was found in the fireplace then put his shirt/coat back on. I’m not saying that was exactly what happened but being indoors certainly would have given him more opportunity to at least check himself over for blood. There was also a teapot of course which might have contained water which he could have poured onto his hands before wiping them on the clothing. Speculation of course but whatever did happen I think that you’d agree that the killer wouldn’t have left that room dripping with blood.

[Elamarna]

I really do not see that.

When I write my comments, I am necessarily expressing my view, just as someone else expresses his view.

When you say, as you do, 'Even when you say "I think", you talk as if only your viewpoint is credible or valid'

and 'your speculation was presented as the only credible or valid options',

those are subjective comments.

They are not facts.

But you are presenting them as facts.

Can you not see that?

As I said before maybe is just a question of style

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Still missing the point,
it's not that you said "I think".

Its that your speculation was presented as the only credible or valid options.

Do you really not see that?

I really do not see that.

When I write my comments, I am necessarily expressing my view, just as someone else expresses his view.

When you say, as you do, 'Even when you say "I think", you talk as if only your viewpoint is credible or valid'

and 'your speculation was presented as the only credible or valid options',

those are subjective comments.

They are not facts.

But you are presenting them as facts.

Can you not see that?

[Elamarna]

'Even when you say "I think", you talk as if only your viewpoint is credible or valid.'

That is ridiculous.

What you're saying smacks of 'who do you think you are?'

To read that much into someone's use of two words, 'I think', cannot be justified.

You cannot be serious!

If I remember correctly, you are one of the people - I think there is one other so far - who has actually implied that you can't be bothered to reply to my posts.

You have alleged that my posts are full of 'factual faults'.

Now you say that you object even to the way I express myself when I say two words, 'I think'.

Perhaps you don't want new people on this forum who have minds of their own.

Still missing the point,
it's not that you said "I think".

Its that your speculation was presented as the only credible or valid options.

Do you really not see that?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Totally missing the point.

Even when you say "I think", you talk as if only your viewpoint is credible or valid.

Maybe it's simply a matter of Style.

Steve

'Even when you say "I think", you talk as if only your viewpoint is credible or valid.'

That is ridiculous.

What you're saying smacks of 'who do you think you are?'

To read that much into someone's use of two words, 'I think', cannot be justified.

You cannot be serious!

If I remember correctly, you are one of the people - I think there is one other so far - who has actually implied that you can't be bothered to reply to my posts.

You have alleged that my posts are full of 'factual faults'.

Now you say that you object even to the way I express myself when I say two words, 'I think'.

Perhaps you don't want new people on this forum who have minds of their own.

[Elamarna]

I think you have made it clear that what this is about is that you - and some others, some of whom now say they can't be bothered to reply to my comments - think that I've come along and, in expressing my views, have been condescending to you and others here, that I've said that my view is the right one, that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, and everything I state is definitely a fact.

I have been left in no doubt that the nub of the problem is that I state as facts or near-facts things which I cannot know.

Now, you say 'And there in the first line is the problem.

"I think"'

Please make up your mind.

If there is a problem when I state my case as if it is a fact, and there is a problem when I say that I think something, then I'm always going to present a problem.

Totally missing the point.

Even when you say "I think", you talk as if only your viewpoint is credible or valid.

Maybe it's simply a matter of Style.

Steve

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

And there in the first line is the problem.

"I think"

Others, think differently, there are many possible routes he could take.

Unfortunately you appear to see your view as the only credible one.


And giving a pricise absolute time such as 1.42 is I am afraid a mistake so many make.
How many times does it need to be pointed out that absolute times are totally unrealistic, simply because of the issue of syncronizied time.
There is a talk on this site from this year's East End Conference which covers this issue of time, and specifically mentions Mitre Square .



Steve

I think you have made it clear that what this is about is that you - and some others, some of whom now say they can't be bothered to reply to my comments - think that I've come along and, in expressing my views, have been condescending to you and others here, that I've said that my view is the right one, that anyone who disagrees with me is wrong, and everything I state is definitely a fact.

I have been left in no doubt that the nub of the problem is that I state as facts or near-facts things which I cannot know.

Now, you say 'And there in the first line is the problem.

"I think"'

Please make up your mind.

If there is a problem when I state my case as if it is a fact, and there is a problem when I say that I think something, then I'm always going to present a problem.

[Elamarna]

I think he left the Square via Mitre Street at about 1.42 a.m. and turned left down Aldgate High Street, thus avoiding Pc Watkins who was not approaching Mitre Street from in front of him.

The route from there to Goulston Street was straightforward: Aldgate High Street, the beginning of Whitechapel High Street, and then Goulston Street in Spitalfields.

He was, therefore, travelling in a north easterly direction with his destination Spitalfields.

For reasons already given, I do not think it is credible that he involved anyone else in his escapades.

The fact that he was carrying Eddowes' kidney and part of her apron, covered with blood and faeces, should rule that out.

And there in the first line is the problem.

"I think"

Others, think differently, there are many possible routes he could take.

Unfortunately you appear to see your view as the only credible one.


And giving a pricise absolute time such as 1.42 is I am afraid a mistake so many make.
How many times does it need to be pointed out that absolute times are totally unrealistic, simply because of the issue of syncronizied time.
There is a talk on this site from this year's East End Conference which covers this issue of time, and specifically mentions Mitre Square .



Steve

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

It’s not pedantry to dispute your original claim which is what I am doing:

“I said there is overwhelming evidence that the murderer lived in Spitalfields.”

Which means that you are putting it close to a fact that the killer lived in Spitalfields. There is no such overwhelming evidence.

My point was that it is being pedantic to expect someone making a case constantly to qualify his every statement by acknowledging that it is not a proven fact.

In making another point, I said there is 'very strong' evidence or 'the evidence suggests strongly that' (I can't remember my exact words).

If it will make you happy, I will amend my 'overwhelming evidence' to 'strong evidence'.

I presented what I consider to be a very strong case that he lived in Spitalfields.

Your responses included, 'It still doesn’t come close to proving that he lived in Spitalfields though; It’s something that you can’t possibly know'.

I didn't say that I 'know'!

Yet your final remark was: 'It’s a fact that being indoors allowed the killer an opportunity to clean up. He couldn’t have cleaned up in the street.'

As you know, there is an story that the murderer once washed his hands in a washbasin in Dorset Street.
That doesn't prove he ever did, but it seems there were washbasins in Dorset Street, via which the murderer necessarily left Miller's Court.

I'm willing to be corrected, but I don't recall that there was a washbasin in Kelly's room.

If there was not, how could he have cleaned up in her room?