What's your profile for Jack?

[DVV]

What evidence is there that JTR was drinking heavily?

He was a man, wasn't he ?

[Beowulf]

The reason for that is that he is out drinking heavily. He commits actions under the influence while he is infact quite an ordinary guy.

What evidence is there that JTR was drinking heavily? We do not know who he was yet. I hold out hope...

Btw, on 'Disorganized schizophrenia'... is one of several types of schizophrenia, a chronic mental illness in which a person loses touch with reality (psychosis). Disorganized schizophrenia is marked by thoughts, speech and behavior that are inappropriate and don't make sense.

Disorganized schizophrenia is considered a more severe type of schizophrenia because people with this condition may be unable to carry out routine daily activities, such as bathing and meal preparation. It may be hard to understand what people with disorganized schizophrenia are saying. Also, frustration and agitation may cause them to lash out.

Disorganized schizophrenia is sometimes known as hebephrenic schizophrenia.' and Kosminski obviously fits this description, if I may be so bold as to say so.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/disorganized-schizophrenia/DS00864

Disorganized and Organized serial killers according to FBI profiling:

Organized serial killers, as profiled by John Douglas, former FBI Profiler, normally share the following common characteristics:

◾ White male, aged 25 to 45
◾ Above average intelligence (100+)
◾ Strong personal and social skills
◾ Able to maintain normal family life
◾ Usually employed in a menial position, often below their abilities
◾ May make an effort to cover up their crimes, often dumping the body in a hidden location and cleaning up the crime scene; some have a working knowledge of forensics

Examples

◾Ted Bundy - Certified Psychologist
◾John Wayne Gacy - Political activist, artist, chef, Freelance entertainer (clown). Gacy also had special clearance by the US Secret Service
◾Harry Powers - Salesman

Disorganized/Asocial

Disorganized serial killers may share these characteristics:
◾ White male, any age range; but females are common as well
◾ Below average intelligence (Edmund Kemper, however, had an IQ of 145)
◾ The habit of leaving the body at the scene, not bothering to cover up the crime
◾ May be difficult to catch due to constant relocation
◾ May have a domineering family member (most notably a parent)
◾ Uses "blitz" attacks to subdue, as opposed to seduction or sympathy
◾ Has very few close relationships and is often referred to as the "quiet type"

Examples

◾Ed Gein - Farmer
◾Jeffrey Dahmer - Chocolate factory worker
◾Edmund Kemper - Transportation worker

http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Serial_Killer

I think disorganized is not so much the killer is less experienced as the killer is more lost in his own mind, that debilitated by his mental condition.

Interesting note from that website:

"The term "serial killer" was coined by FBI Special Agent Robert Ressler who, along with colleague John Douglas, was one of the founders of the BAU. In the past, serial killers were known as Varedwulfs (literally, werewolves), as their crimes were brutal enough in the eyes of locals to perpetuate the belief that they were committed by supernatural creatures"

[Abby Normal]

Good posts DM and Kuniworth


I would say that the ripper if you had to categorize him would be more of an organized killer type. I don't see how someone who never left any evidence or clues by mistake, was perceptive enough to never be caught red handed and always seemed to know exactly when to skedaddle, and was able to pull off something like the double event could be ever be categorized as disorganized.

I think he planned the nights he intended to kill because I would find it hard to believe that whenever he was out and about he would be carrying relatively long knife/knives.

Now, regarding Stride. I think that may have been the case where he, after spending considerable time and perhaps money, was unable to have her go where he wanted her to go (a secluded place) and simply lost his usual cool.

[DVV]

Hi Kuniworth

excellent post.

Cheers

[Damaso Marte]

On the other hand the Ripper left virtually no evidence. Even at the Chapman scene, the most remarkable thing may be the lack of blood, and there's of course a non-zero chance that the Chapman murder occurred earlier in the night.

It's hard to tell how far in advance the Ripper planned. We have no evidence that tells us whether he decided "this Saturday, I am going to go ripping", or whether it was a spur of the moment decision. Even the double event might be consistent with a devious plan to kill two women in two jurisdictions, with the non-mutilation of Stride pre-meditated to avoid getting blood on his person.

But I think once he made the decision to Rip, he was relatively organized and methodical. One reason why, if Swartz is right (and I think Swartz was making it up), Stride is not a Ripper victim, because her attacker is inconsistent with this.

[Kuniworth]

I agree. Although the FBI profiler$ label him a$ mainly di$organized or mixed at be$t for $ome rea$on.

The reason for that is that he is out drinking heavily. He commits actions under the influence while he is infact quite an ordinary guy. That explains why he can communicate with the victims and take knife with him but in the same time take huge risks. Reason it does'nt add up is that he is out drinking. Same as Hagamannen, drank heavily but did not appear drunk by victims and witnessess at the time.
'
A strong indication of this is the murder of Annie Chapman. A predator looking for a victim would not wait until morning to attack with that many potential victims around all night. But the ripper captures the moment as he is on his way home from a pub or the like and takes a huge risk.

Same with double event. Huge risks, most likely spotted with Stride in the street behaving agreesively. That would explain why he could have been spotted earlier approaching victim by marshall or pc smith and then later attack her. It's irrational because he acts in the moment. He then flees but is in a rouse and catches eddowes at mitre square.

Most likely this guy was never detected. Hagamannen would not have been caught either if it was not for DNA. In the case with hagamannen it was widely speculated by profilers that this was a loner which proved to be completly wrong. Hagamannen proved to be a family man that flew under the radar.

Jack the ripper could even be out drinking with friends. He could be known by friends for strolling off at end of the evenings but never suspected by them. Hagamannen stopped in fear of beeing caught for a couple of years JTR could do the same.

[Abby Normal]

Jack was a roughly organized killer, I'd say.

I agree. Although the FBI profiler$ label him a$ mainly di$organized or mixed at be$t for $ome rea$on.

[DVV]

Jack was a roughly organized killer, I'd say.

[Abby Normal]

Broadly speaking, organized means that the killer plans in advance and is more in control of his actions, more like cunning. He might write taunting letters to the police etc. He will be more careful to avoid detection... by wearing gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints, etc. The disorganized killer acts more randomly, more impulsively. He might kill on the spur of the moment, and is more inclined to leave clues behind at the crime scene. Richard Chase is an example of the latter. But the FBI has used these terms less frequently because there are too many examples of "mixed" behavior. Even Bundy, who is the textbook example of the organized killer, exhibited disorganized traits at times.

This does not get into the question of how the two types are different psychologically speaking. A psychotic killer is generally more likely to be disorganized, but again... this is not so clear cut. Insane killers (like Chase even) may have organized behaviors. Napper is another example.

RH

Bingo. Al$o a di$organized attack i$ more indicative of a younger and/or le$$ experienced killer.

[robhouse]

What exactly does "organized" and "disorganized" mean in the case of a serial killer?

Broadly speaking, organized means that the killer plans in advance and is more in control of his actions, more like cunning. He might write taunting letters to the police etc. He will be more careful to avoid detection... by wearing gloves to avoid leaving fingerprints, etc. The disorganized killer acts more randomly, more impulsively. He might kill on the spur of the moment, and is more inclined to leave clues behind at the crime scene. Richard Chase is an example of the latter. But the FBI has used these terms less frequently because there are too many examples of "mixed" behavior. Even Bundy, who is the textbook example of the organized killer, exhibited disorganized traits at times.

This does not get into the question of how the two types are different psychologically speaking. A psychotic killer is generally more likely to be disorganized, but again... this is not so clear cut. Insane killers (like Chase even) may have organized behaviors. Napper is another example.

RH

[Errata]

What exactly does "organized" and "disorganized" mean in the case of a serial killer?

Swear to god, depends on who you ask.

[Damaso Marte]

What exactly does "organized" and "disorganized" mean in the case of a serial killer?

[lynn cates]

all?

Hello KW. Welcome to the boards.

Interesting post. I wonder, though, if any of these characteristics applies to all C5 cases?

Cheers.
LC

[Kuniworth]

Swedish serial rapist Hagamannen is spot on with profile of Jack the ripper. Study the case of Hagamannen and you will find A LOTS of similarties to understanding how JTR worked. Makes sense.

Hagamannen:
30-35 years during attacks
Working class
Attacks passed as not tributed to him until catched
Short, broad shoulderd, small height is personal complex
Manual Labour(strong), in regular work
Blitz attack, strangles first
Escalating ferocity
Drinks in pubs, then walks all over area of attacks in search of victims
Disorganized modus operandi
Capable of talking to victims
Takes trophys
Appears as normal ordinary guy
Aware of police, can take breaks from crimes, for shorter and longer times
Throw himself into police investigation: no

Look into attacks on prostitutes preceding JTR crimes. Could be years back as in case of Hagamannen with agressiv behaviour but not necessarily strangle first or knife.

[GregBaron]

What peak?

I've always been unsure of that image as well, glad you brought it up. Adding a visual to this group. Self portrait by Andre Derain. French artist from the period.

Thanks you all. These images help although personally I wouldn't call any
of them a peak.........one man's peak is another man's crown...



Greg