What's your profile for Jack?

[Bridewell]

male
25-45
lived and/or worked locally and knew the area
unskilled or semi-skilled
neat and clean in appearance (as far as it was possible to be at that time)
literate
probably not in a relationship
moderate drinker
left the district after the death of Kelly

I doubt if that's very far from the truth. Pretty much encapsulates my own views on the subject.

[DVV]

Now that's interesting.
I suppose capgras was unknown in 1888.
How do you think it would have been called ?
Delusions of persecution ?
(That's in Fleming's file, who knew - at least - one of the victims)

[Errata]

I thought it was a thread on JtR profile.

I like to think no knowledge is ever wasted, but if it took that long for me to find some application for a paper on a rare disease, I may be overly optimistic.

On the other hand, If Jack had Capgras, it would mean that he did in fact know his victims, and might explain the peculiar timing of the murders. And could possibly shed light on why he stopped killing. But that's a massive reach, and there's certainly no evidence for it. Surely someone would have come forward after these deaths to tell the cops about a guy raving about how Annie Chapman wasn't really Annie Chapman.

[DVV]

I thought it was a thread on JtR profile.

[Errata]

"Michael Cleary, a young cooper from Ballyvadlea, in Tipperary, Ireland, was convinced that his ill wife, a seamstress, had been abducted by the fairies, and that the body he was burning was not that of Bridget, but rather a fairy changeling. Angela Bourke's meticulously researched account of the sensational and still-remembered burning of Bridget Cleary situates itself at precisely the point at which the institutions of the modern state—Poor Law guardians, doctors, police, and the Church—become inextricably entangled with local discourses of fairy doctors, abductions, and ritual torture. "

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/lm/summary/v021/21.2parsons.html

Capgras Syndrome, or Capgras Delusion is a neurological disorder common in paranoid schizophrenia, sometimes resulting from a profound head injury or dementia, somewhat similar to prosopagnosia, but instead of face blindness, it consists of emotional blindness connected to a face. Sufferers believe that their loved ones are in fact imposters.
It's really only considered remarkable when the sufferer was not otherwise delusional. Otherwise it just tends to be shuffled into a general pattern of madness. Michael Cleary was likely not otherwise delusional, or they simply would have reported that in his madness he burned his wife alive. Likely this was brought on by a head injury, thyroid problems, or some kind of toxicity. But, not simple superstition.
And yes. I did a paper on Capgras. And I felt a desperate need to apply the knowledge I've been hanging on to for the last 15 years. Maybe now I can clear that out and make room for something else, like cupcake recipes or advanced thermodynamics.

[Garry Wroe]

The quote "you would say anything but your prayers" has always struck me. I envision that conversation going something like this:

Stride: your not the ripper are you?

Man: (in joking tone) you never know.

Stride: well then I better say my prayers.

Man: you would say anything but your prayers.

Sorry to disagree, Abby, but the ‘you would say anything but your prayers’ remark was more likely a jocular response to an exaggeration or patent falsehood uttered by Stride, a woman who we know was prone to gilding the lily.

That statement has always made me wonder about his personality and possible motive (or at least his own justification). As if he was using their apparent low morals or lack of religion as an excuse while again showing his own feeling of superiority.

Personally, Abby, since there remains considerable doubt that Stride was even a Ripper victim, I have long thought it unwise to include the Berner Street crime in any serious attempt to evaluate the Whitechapel Murderer’s personality and behavioural characteristics.

[DVV]

Hi Abby

Very clever indeed.

Thanks

[Beowulf]

The quote "you would say anything but your prayers" has always struck me. I envision that conversation going something like this:

Stride: your not the ripper are you?

Man: (in joking tone) you never know.

Stride: well then I better say my prayers.

Man: you would say anything but your prayers.

That statement has always made me wonder about his personality and possible motive (or at least his own justification). As if he was using their apparent low morals or lack of religion as an excuse while again showing his own feeling of superiority.

Boy, is that a great little idea as to how that conversation may have went and that last sentence got to be said.

[Abby Normal]

I think I can believe JTR could be of any nationality common to Whitechapel at the time. English, Russian, Polish, the men dressed similarly, mustaches, hats, coats, nothing really remarkable enough to stand out, at least as far as all the stories I've read from the 'witnesses'.

Late at night, an area bustling with people coming and going at all hours on the streets in Whitechapel to the bars, to the working girls, to the doss houses. One of the stories surprised me as someone had gone out and got a full meal at like 2 am, cooked and served.

As far as the profile for Jack I'm always wondering what was his inner self. What did IT look like? What was the inner man like? His real personality, to know him, really, what would one think?

Maybe he wasn't killing girls in that fashion with violence as the object of his desire. Maybe it was a means to an end.

I'm always wondering, if like one of Dali's bizarre paintings inside he had to have a bizarre inner landscape. Stretching out to some object in his mind that was his goal. Was he on a road that was an anxious, illogical, superstitious unclear journey? I feel he did not know what he was really aiming for, when the path was under his feet and he was 'almost there' I wonder if his heart was beating wildly, almost giving him away. The girl would maybe read that as anticipation to the act he, like all the others, sought from her.

I'm always wondering, just 'before' if they saw a look in his eyes, and misunderstood the anxiousness, and didn't realize they were looking into the eyes of a soul completely foreign to them. And he, looking back at them revealed something of his inner strange map. Did they ever have a sudden recognition of who he was? Or was he behind them, intentionally never revealing that inner man?

I think he was reaching for something that he himself didn't understand.

In 1895 Michael Cleary killed his wife, Bridget Cleary, a 26-year old woman. His motive? He believed she had been taken away by the Fairies. He burned her to death. He thought his wife was a 'changeling' and to get his real wife back, burned the changeling.

"Michael Cleary, a young cooper from Ballyvadlea, in Tipperary, Ireland, was convinced that his ill wife, a seamstress, had been abducted by the fairies, and that the body he was burning was not that of Bridget, but rather a fairy changeling. Angela Bourke's meticulously researched account of the sensational and still-remembered burning of Bridget Cleary situates itself at precisely the point at which the institutions of the modern state—Poor Law guardians, doctors, police, and the Church—become inextricably entangled with local discourses of fairy doctors, abductions, and ritual torture. "

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/lm/summary/v021/21.2parsons.html

I cite this story not to say JTR thought these women were 'fairies' or changelings. I read this story and thought once again, as I've wondered many a time, what beliefs inside led JTR to his own murderous path.

It was a day and age of odd notions. Lots of superstitions and beliefs of the time helped people explain the world. It may not have been as a matter of violence or retribution or moral outrage.

It may have been a lot stranger than that.

and so the profile I would give would be:

Single male
Lives in the area
Alcoholic
Strong
Works Monday to Friday
Nocturnal habits
May be drug user, heroin in specific
Probable knowledge of anatomy
Averts eyes, looks anxious, uncomfortable when questioned
Not a talker, introvert
Smoker
Could be handsome
Tall
Prone to some sort of fetish
Keeps to self
Soft speaking

Hi Beowulf . Interesting post. Re his inner life. He was in his own world that's for sure. I would say that he was probably obsessive, fantasizes a lot, lonely, paranoid and with a superiority complex.

As for being foreign? I don't think so. No witnesses ever described someone talking with a foreign accent. Yes The chapman witness described a foreign looking man, but she also heard him speak and there is no mention of an accent plus she said she only saw the back of him. Also, at the height of the scare I doubt any one who appeared different would be able to easily convince a woman to a secluded spot. He was someone the victims never suspected. A local joe who they might have even known. And if questioned by his victims he probably could quickly joke it away and make them feel safe. "who me? Do I look like the ripper to you? HaHa."

The quote "you would say anything but your prayers" has always struck me. I envision that conversation going something like this:

Stride: your not the ripper are you?

Man: (in joking tone) you never know.

Stride: well then I better say my prayers.

Man: you would say anything but your prayers.

That statement has always made me wonder about his personality and possible motive (or at least his own justification). As if he was using their apparent low morals or lack of religion as an excuse while again showing his own feeling of superiority.

[Limehouse]

Hello Board.
Because of his disfigurement or speech impediment he feels unequal to people around him and fosters a hatred for good looking men and women. He may feel people treat him differently because of how he looks or sounds. He probably avoids as much contact with people as possible.
Please share yours.

Cheers, DTS.

Hi DTS,

An interesting first post that has prompted a lot of debate.

Firstly, I have to object (gently) to your suggestion that the killer may have been disfigured and that this may have been a motive.

Disfigurement would not have been all that unusual in those days due to smallpox, syphilis, malnutrition and/or alcohol consumption during pregnancy and a range of other factors. Although people with disfigurements may then (as now) have been shunned, it does not follow that these people would have become murderers. Such a suggestion draws more on literature than on reality. Having a disfigurement does not automatically mean you become resentful, angry and exceptionally violent.

My profile would be thus:

male
25-45
lived and/or worked locally and knew the area
unskilled or semi-skilled
neat and clean in appearance (as far as it was possible to be at that time)
literate
probably not in a relationship
moderate drinker
left the district after the death of Kelly

[DRoy]

I believe 'Jack' escalated. Apparently serial killers don't do that since they enjoy whatever it is that gives them joy. In my opinion 'Jack' read the papers and purposely escalated not because he personally needed to or wanted to but because he liked the attention. He read the papers and reveled in it and purposely pushed to the next level or the next extreme.

I'll admit i'm not one to give personal opinions easy and not easy to answer because we don't know the victims. However, I personally believe he got satisfaction from the newspapers and the hype about him. He liked reading about himself and how he out-smarted the police and got away with it.

I don't believe he wrote the GSF or the Dear Boss but he may have written a more non chalante letter not signed JTR. He wanted attention and recognition so he would have said something.

All opinion and my own supposition.

Cheers
DRoy

[Beowulf]

I think I can believe JTR could be of any nationality common to Whitechapel at the time. English, Russian, Polish, the men dressed similarly, mustaches, hats, coats, nothing really remarkable enough to stand out, at least as far as all the stories I've read from the 'witnesses'.

Late at night, an area bustling with people coming and going at all hours on the streets in Whitechapel to the bars, to the working girls, to the doss houses. One of the stories surprised me as someone had gone out and got a full meal at like 2 am, cooked and served.

As far as the profile for Jack I'm always wondering what was his inner self. What did IT look like? What was the inner man like? His real personality, to know him, really, what would one think?

Maybe he wasn't killing girls in that fashion with violence as the object of his desire. Maybe it was a means to an end.

I'm always wondering, if like one of Dali's bizarre paintings inside he had to have a bizarre inner landscape. Stretching out to some object in his mind that was his goal. Was he on a road that was an anxious, illogical, superstitious unclear journey? I feel he did not know what he was really aiming for, when the path was under his feet and he was 'almost there' I wonder if his heart was beating wildly, almost giving him away. The girl would maybe read that as anticipation to the act he, like all the others, sought from her.

I'm always wondering, just 'before' if they saw a look in his eyes, and misunderstood the anxiousness, and didn't realize they were looking into the eyes of a soul completely foreign to them. And he, looking back at them revealed something of his inner strange map. Did they ever have a sudden recognition of who he was? Or was he behind them, intentionally never revealing that inner man?

I think he was reaching for something that he himself didn't understand.

In 1895 Michael Cleary killed his wife, Bridget Cleary, a 26-year old woman. His motive? He believed she had been taken away by the Fairies. He burned her to death. He thought his wife was a 'changeling' and to get his real wife back, burned the changeling.

"Michael Cleary, a young cooper from Ballyvadlea, in Tipperary, Ireland, was convinced that his ill wife, a seamstress, had been abducted by the fairies, and that the body he was burning was not that of Bridget, but rather a fairy changeling. Angela Bourke's meticulously researched account of the sensational and still-remembered burning of Bridget Cleary situates itself at precisely the point at which the institutions of the modern state—Poor Law guardians, doctors, police, and the Church—become inextricably entangled with local discourses of fairy doctors, abductions, and ritual torture. "

http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/lm/summary/v021/21.2parsons.html

I cite this story not to say JTR thought these women were 'fairies' or changelings. I read this story and thought once again, as I've wondered many a time, what beliefs inside led JTR to his own murderous path.

It was a day and age of odd notions. Lots of superstitions and beliefs of the time helped people explain the world. It may not have been as a matter of violence or retribution or moral outrage.

It may have been a lot stranger than that.

and so the profile I would give would be:

Single male
Lives in the area
Alcoholic
Strong
Works Monday to Friday
Nocturnal habits
May be drug user, heroin in specific
Probable knowledge of anatomy
Averts eyes, looks anxious, uncomfortable when questioned
Not a talker, introvert
Smoker
Could be handsome
Tall
Prone to some sort of fetish
Keeps to self
Soft speaking

[Cogidubnus]

Because he could...I rather like that...Separated rather than divorced (the latter was for the rich, or those who were legally married or those who really cared)...and you can't lack close neighbours in Whitechapel...Don't think the trophies were retained long term...possibly cooked though...think offal

All the best

Dave

[Deathtosnails]

On joining this discussion board I had some preconceived ideas of 'Jack's' personality and possible motives for why he did what he did.

I think I've gone full circle.

I've read the crap out of many threads on here and I've watched most of the documentaries on serial killers out there. I've also read many of the books on serial killers.

After all this where am I? hmmmm...Still confused is where.

Who was 'Jack' and why did he do what he did?

Easy...no one knows. No one ever will. 'Jack' did not really know himself.

Why...? Because he wanted to and he could get away with it. And he did.

Not much closure there really. But where is the victim's?

New profile:

White male.
30-40 years old.
Divorced. Possbile children.
Alcoholic.
Lives just above the poverty line.
Manual labourer.
No friends or close neigbours.
Quiet and meek to most people, but the victims saw and maybe heard quitely, the real him.
He has a child like curiosity. No specific reason to feel inside them apart from what makes them work.
Trophies taken home were an extension of his curiosity. Take them home to look at in the light and then he ate them. Mary's heart was not removed from the room. It was cooked in the fire and eaten.


Why did he stop? He didn't. He paused because he felt he was close to being caught. Did they ever catch him? hmmmm...

[Smoking Joe]

The murders probabley had little to do with planning ,and much more to do with circumstance,as regards age,shape,physical condition of the victim.No messianic killer he,just a plain ole,apple pie munching, flag waving rosey cheeked unfortunate,who somewhere during his childhood or adolescence developed his sexual identity to a point where sex,pain and blood somehow intermingled in equal quantity. He was Driven as we all are by urges beyond our control.None of us are in complete control of what we do,we only think we are. The inner Beast one might say.