What's your profile for Jack?

[DVV]

Jack was a roughly organized killer, I'd say.

[Abby Normal]

Jack was a roughly organized killer, I'd say.

I agree. Although the FBI profiler$ label him a$ mainly di$organized or mixed at be$t for $ome rea$on.

[Kuniworth]

I agree. Although the FBI profiler$ label him a$ mainly di$organized or mixed at be$t for $ome rea$on.

The reason for that is that he is out drinking heavily. He commits actions under the influence while he is infact quite an ordinary guy. That explains why he can communicate with the victims and take knife with him but in the same time take huge risks. Reason it does'nt add up is that he is out drinking. Same as Hagamannen, drank heavily but did not appear drunk by victims and witnessess at the time.
'
A strong indication of this is the murder of Annie Chapman. A predator looking for a victim would not wait until morning to attack with that many potential victims around all night. But the ripper captures the moment as he is on his way home from a pub or the like and takes a huge risk.

Same with double event. Huge risks, most likely spotted with Stride in the street behaving agreesively. That would explain why he could have been spotted earlier approaching victim by marshall or pc smith and then later attack her. It's irrational because he acts in the moment. He then flees but is in a rouse and catches eddowes at mitre square.

Most likely this guy was never detected. Hagamannen would not have been caught either if it was not for DNA. In the case with hagamannen it was widely speculated by profilers that this was a loner which proved to be completly wrong. Hagamannen proved to be a family man that flew under the radar.

Jack the ripper could even be out drinking with friends. He could be known by friends for strolling off at end of the evenings but never suspected by them. Hagamannen stopped in fear of beeing caught for a couple of years JTR could do the same.

[Damaso Marte]

On the other hand the Ripper left virtually no evidence. Even at the Chapman scene, the most remarkable thing may be the lack of blood, and there's of course a non-zero chance that the Chapman murder occurred earlier in the night.

It's hard to tell how far in advance the Ripper planned. We have no evidence that tells us whether he decided "this Saturday, I am going to go ripping", or whether it was a spur of the moment decision. Even the double event might be consistent with a devious plan to kill two women in two jurisdictions, with the non-mutilation of Stride pre-meditated to avoid getting blood on his person.

But I think once he made the decision to Rip, he was relatively organized and methodical. One reason why, if Swartz is right (and I think Swartz was making it up), Stride is not a Ripper victim, because her attacker is inconsistent with this.

[DVV]

Hi Kuniworth

excellent post.

Cheers

[Abby Normal]

Good posts DM and Kuniworth


I would say that the ripper if you had to categorize him would be more of an organized killer type. I don't see how someone who never left any evidence or clues by mistake, was perceptive enough to never be caught red handed and always seemed to know exactly when to skedaddle, and was able to pull off something like the double event could be ever be categorized as disorganized.

I think he planned the nights he intended to kill because I would find it hard to believe that whenever he was out and about he would be carrying relatively long knife/knives.

Now, regarding Stride. I think that may have been the case where he, after spending considerable time and perhaps money, was unable to have her go where he wanted her to go (a secluded place) and simply lost his usual cool.

[Beowulf]

The reason for that is that he is out drinking heavily. He commits actions under the influence while he is infact quite an ordinary guy.

What evidence is there that JTR was drinking heavily? We do not know who he was yet. I hold out hope...

Btw, on 'Disorganized schizophrenia'... is one of several types of schizophrenia, a chronic mental illness in which a person loses touch with reality (psychosis). Disorganized schizophrenia is marked by thoughts, speech and behavior that are inappropriate and don't make sense.

Disorganized schizophrenia is considered a more severe type of schizophrenia because people with this condition may be unable to carry out routine daily activities, such as bathing and meal preparation. It may be hard to understand what people with disorganized schizophrenia are saying. Also, frustration and agitation may cause them to lash out.

Disorganized schizophrenia is sometimes known as hebephrenic schizophrenia.' and Kosminski obviously fits this description, if I may be so bold as to say so.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/disorganized-schizophrenia/DS00864

Disorganized and Organized serial killers according to FBI profiling:

Organized serial killers, as profiled by John Douglas, former FBI Profiler, normally share the following common characteristics:

◾ White male, aged 25 to 45
◾ Above average intelligence (100+)
◾ Strong personal and social skills
◾ Able to maintain normal family life
◾ Usually employed in a menial position, often below their abilities
◾ May make an effort to cover up their crimes, often dumping the body in a hidden location and cleaning up the crime scene; some have a working knowledge of forensics

Examples

◾Ted Bundy - Certified Psychologist
◾John Wayne Gacy - Political activist, artist, chef, Freelance entertainer (clown). Gacy also had special clearance by the US Secret Service
◾Harry Powers - Salesman

Disorganized/Asocial

Disorganized serial killers may share these characteristics:
◾ White male, any age range; but females are common as well
◾ Below average intelligence (Edmund Kemper, however, had an IQ of 145)
◾ The habit of leaving the body at the scene, not bothering to cover up the crime
◾ May be difficult to catch due to constant relocation
◾ May have a domineering family member (most notably a parent)
◾ Uses "blitz" attacks to subdue, as opposed to seduction or sympathy
◾ Has very few close relationships and is often referred to as the "quiet type"

Examples

◾Ed Gein - Farmer
◾Jeffrey Dahmer - Chocolate factory worker
◾Edmund Kemper - Transportation worker

http://criminalminds.wikia.com/wiki/Serial_Killer

I think disorganized is not so much the killer is less experienced as the killer is more lost in his own mind, that debilitated by his mental condition.

Interesting note from that website:

"The term "serial killer" was coined by FBI Special Agent Robert Ressler who, along with colleague John Douglas, was one of the founders of the BAU. In the past, serial killers were known as Varedwulfs (literally, werewolves), as their crimes were brutal enough in the eyes of locals to perpetuate the belief that they were committed by supernatural creatures"

[DVV]

What evidence is there that JTR was drinking heavily?

He was a man, wasn't he ?

[Kuniworth]

Actually there is not much evidence either way. Best thing we can do is look at what really happened and go from there.

Nichols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes are all murders commited while takning huge risks. Chapman is in early morning hours, Nichols in a gateway in a street, Stride almost in the street and Eddowes during a massive manhunt. The way he meets the victims is by chance, the risks are so great that there is every chance he could be caught. That is not a rational risk taking of a calculating offender.

Chapman murder in the morning with the hanbury street is simply a case of seizing the oppurtunity as it present itself. Had JTR been out looking for victims aroused or in an urge to kill he would have encountered potential victims earlier that night. And had he been careful with planning, and that dominated over arousal, he would not have chosen the backyard of a house in the morning hours.
The conclusion can only be that JTR was out at that time, caught Chapman by coincidence and lives out his fantasy. Reason he is out that early on a weekend is that he has been out drinking and is on his way home. And who drinks in these pubs, you got it, the local man.

However if Abby Normal is right on Stride, that JTR is actively trying to persuade Stride to come with him several times(Which PC Smith and Marshall seem to indicate), and he dresses up to get Mary Kelly to come with him that is clear signs of the progressive state of lust murderers.

The fbi profile in fact stated that JTR was out drinking in local pubs just like Hagamannen did. Alcohol works like a trigger, he uses it to put him in the mood to commit the crimes he get a sexual pleasure from.

If we conclude the fact that JTR is the average joe with a sexual orientation for lust murder and neither the cunning mastermind or raging lunatic a lot falls into place. He does not leave a lot of clues around because he is not stupid, he understands how to get out effectively due to local knowledge and not beeing a lunatic.

He uses his hands first to subdue victim through strangulation(=indication he trust his hands indicate manual labour eg working class)

He takes with him the organs that gets him sexual aroused and the knife(s) which he carries with him all the time, not just when he is out to kill. Thats why he does'nt drop them on the crime scene.

[Damaso Marte]

He uses his hands first to subdue victim through strangulation(=indication he trust his hands indicate manual labour eg working class)

Lots of assertions like this are made on this forum all the time - other popular ones include "facial mutilations, therefore he knew the victim"

I would love for a statistical social scientist to evaluate questions like this: do any attributes of the murders actually suggest, based on empirical evidence, what we often say they suggest?

[Wickerman]

Actually there is not much evidence either way. Best thing we can do is look at what really happened and go from there.

The conclusion can only be that JTR was out at that time, caught Chapman by coincidence and lives out his fantasy. Reason he is out that early on a weekend is that he has been out drinking and is on his way home. And who drinks in these pubs, you got it, the local man.

On his way home?, Chapman was murdered almost 5 hours after the pubs shut.

The fbi profile in fact stated that JTR was out drinking in local pubs just like Hagamannen did. Alcohol works like a trigger, he uses it to put him in the mood to commit the crimes he get a sexual pleasure from.

The pub was the only place to socialize, even if you picked up a woman on the street it was customary to take her for a drink.

He uses his hands first to subdue victim through strangulation(=indication he trust his hands indicate manual labour eg working class)

There's no evidence on the throat that he used his hands.

He takes with him the organs that gets him sexual aroused and the knife(s) which he carries with him all the time, not just when he is out to kill. Thats why he does'nt drop them on the crime scene.

If you compare any other random deaths you'll find the only one's where the knife is found, are suicides.

[caz]

Hi Garry
Thanks for the response but I disagree. The mans statement would make no sense unless it was preceded by a Stride comment that contained the word prayer in it.

Also, there is little doubt in my mind that Stride was a victim of the ripper. A man wearing apeaked cap was seen by several witnesses that night-the broad shouldered man seen attacking Liz and the man talking to Eddowes along with the man who was heard making the prayer statement. My bet is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night.

Hi Abby,

It depends which word was stressed. If he said: "You would say anything but your prayers", I would agree that Stride must have mentioned prayers. But if he said: "You would say anything but your prayers" the meaning is somewhat different and he would be the one introducing prayers into the conversation.

It sounds to me like an expression that wasn't unique to this man or this occasion, to mean "I don't believe a word of it" or "pull the other leg, it's got bells on", so I would plump for the stress on prayers, ie she came across as a story teller (which we know she was regarding the Princess Alice disaster, for example) and the man was ribbing her for it. "Oh yeah, I bet you'd say anything to get your hands on thruppence, but never your prayers".

Love,

Caz
X

[lynn cates]

strangulation

Hello KW, Damaso, Jon.

Jon is correct. After Annie there is no evidence of strangulation.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Indeed no signs

A thought just occured to me in regards to "sailor man". What if his red bandana thing was used as a means to subdue Eddowes into position to slit her throat? It could explain the lack of blood on her front and if it was cut the need for cutting the apron for transportation of the how you say, "goods". Or something of the sort.

[DVV]

It's all the same

No victim has ever been strangled.
All we have are signs of suffocation.
The murderer never meant to kill his victims by strangulation.
It merely helped him to lower them to the ground.
Were Stride and Eddowes lowered to the ground before they got slaughtered ?
Yes, absolutely. By the murderer's hands, not at knifepoint.