Originally posted by Abby Normal
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostThe quote "you would say anything but your prayers" has always struck me. I envision that conversation going something like this:
Stride: your not the ripper are you?
Man: (in joking tone) you never know.
Stride: well then I better say my prayers.
Man: you would say anything but your prayers.
Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostThat statement has always made me wonder about his personality and possible motive (or at least his own justification). As if he was using their apparent low morals or lack of religion as an excuse while again showing his own feeling of superiority.
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Originally posted by Beowulf View Post
"Michael Cleary, a young cooper from Ballyvadlea, in Tipperary, Ireland, was convinced that his ill wife, a seamstress, had been abducted by the fairies, and that the body he was burning was not that of Bridget, but rather a fairy changeling. Angela Bourke's meticulously researched account of the sensational and still-remembered burning of Bridget Cleary situates itself at precisely the point at which the institutions of the modern state—Poor Law guardians, doctors, police, and the Church—become inextricably entangled with local discourses of fairy doctors, abductions, and ritual torture. "
It's really only considered remarkable when the sufferer was not otherwise delusional. Otherwise it just tends to be shuffled into a general pattern of madness. Michael Cleary was likely not otherwise delusional, or they simply would have reported that in his madness he burned his wife alive. Likely this was brought on by a head injury, thyroid problems, or some kind of toxicity. But, not simple superstition.
And yes. I did a paper on Capgras. And I felt a desperate need to apply the knowledge I've been hanging on to for the last 15 years. Maybe now I can clear that out and make room for something else, like cupcake recipes or advanced thermodynamics.The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Originally posted by DVV View PostI thought it was a thread on JtR profile.
On the other hand, If Jack had Capgras, it would mean that he did in fact know his victims, and might explain the peculiar timing of the murders. And could possibly shed light on why he stopped killing. But that's a massive reach, and there's certainly no evidence for it. Surely someone would have come forward after these deaths to tell the cops about a guy raving about how Annie Chapman wasn't really Annie Chapman.The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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male
25-45
lived and/or worked locally and knew the area
unskilled or semi-skilled
neat and clean in appearance (as far as it was possible to be at that time)
literate
probably not in a relationship
moderate drinker
left the district after the death of KellyI won't always agree but I'll try not to be disagreeable.
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Originally posted by DVV View PostNow that's interesting.
I suppose capgras was unknown in 1888.
How do you think it would have been called ?
Delusions of persecution ?
(That's in Fleming's file, who knew - at least - one of the victims)
But Capgras (the man who named the disease) was alive at the time and had been researching (if my High School French holds up) psychoses of interpretation... wait you're French, I can just paste this. Les Folies raisonnantes, Les Psychoses ŕ base d'interprétations délirantes, and Délire d’interprétation de Sérieux et Capgras. Serieux being his mentor. Now most of those papers date to the turn of the century, but the behaviors had been described previously, just not organized into an actual categorized separate disease. But the condition is quite rare, and it occurs predominantly in women.
The major downside to this theory is that Capgras only is applied to people the sufferer knows well. He never thinks his bus driver is an alien, he thinks his kids are. It because when we see the face of someone we care about we have an emotional recognition. People with Capgras have no emotional recognition, so they try to explain why their loved one looks like their loved one but is clearly a stranger. Because if they were not a stranger they would have that emotional connection. So if Jack killed because he had Capgras, he had also killed his family before moving on to friends, assuming he was friends with these women. So Jack killed his wife, his kids, his parents, before he killed these prostitutes. If he had Capgras.
But if you want to read up on a really fascinating disorder, try Jumping Frenchmen of Maine, which I think would make a great killer in a book. There's another good one where people get jolted on the subway, or trip over an object, and think that their soul fell out but I can't remember the name of that one offhand.The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Originally posted by Errata View PostCapgras Syndrome, or Capgras Delusion is a neurological disorder common in paranoid schizophrenia, sometimes resulting from a profound head injury or dementia, somewhat similar to prosopagnosia, but instead of face blindness, it consists of emotional blindness connected to a face. Sufferers believe that their loved ones are in fact imposters.
It's really only considered remarkable when the sufferer was not otherwise delusional. Otherwise it just tends to be shuffled into a general pattern of madness. Michael Cleary was likely not otherwise delusional, or they simply would have reported that in his madness he burned his wife alive. Likely this was brought on by a head injury, thyroid problems, or some kind of toxicity. But, not simple superstition.
And yes. I did a paper on Capgras. And I felt a desperate need to apply the knowledge I've been hanging on to for the last 15 years. Maybe now I can clear that out and make room for something else, like cupcake recipes or advanced thermodynamics.
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misidentification
Originally posted by Errata View PostPerhaps, since I imagine if you feel like someone you love is replaced with an imposter that has to feel like persecution. I would certainly think paranoia would work it's way somewhere int to description. Today it is categorized as a "delusional misidentification disorder".
He was about to be released when he started ranting like this.
And finally died in Claybury 25 years later.
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Originally posted by Beowulf View PostInteresting. So, I should add to my profile JTR possible head injuryThe early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Originally posted by DVV View PostFleming thought one of the medics was an old Jewish acquaintance ("Isaacs") with whom he used to play coconut shy in Bethnal Green.
He was about to be released when he started ranting like this.
And finally died in Claybury 25 years later.
I think mental illness or neurological disorder is likely somewhere in the mix. But not the typical ones. I don't think he was Schizophrenic, Bipolar, Manic, whatever. I don't think he was recognizably mad, and while there are many mental illnesses that fly below the radar, those same illnesses have to be spectacular for murder to be involved. Nor do I think any of the spectacular problems were in play, because frankly people notice those and comment on those. Capgras does not fly below the radar. But obsession can be masked, psychopathy can be masked, any number of issues involving paranoia are masked as a matter of course, disinhibition is a common result of a brain injury but can easily be masked by simply compartmentalizing one's life. Another common result of brain injury is explosive rage. So while I don't think Jack was "mad" in any way recognizable at the time, I think it's entirely probable that there was a condition that contributed to these crimes. I think the impulses were his, but I think it's possible that he lost the ability to control them through no fault of his own. Capgras always leads to violence, which is perfectly understandable if you look at it from the Capgras sufferer's point of view. It doesn't come from a person's deep seated desires to murder those close to them. It's self defense. I don't think Jack is like that. I think he had the desire. What he lacked was the permission or confidence to carry it off. Getting nailed in the forehead and losing the ability to empathize could have given him the permission he had otherwise lacked. For example.The early bird might get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.
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Originally posted by Garry Wroe View PostSorry to disagree, Abby, but the ‘you would say anything but your prayers’ remark was more likely a jocular response to an exaggeration or patent falsehood uttered by Stride, a woman who we know was prone to gilding the lily.
Personally, Abby, since there remains considerable doubt that Stride was even a Ripper victim, I have long thought it unwise to include the Berner Street crime in any serious attempt to evaluate the Whitechapel Murderer’s personality and behavioural characteristics.
Thanks for the response but I disagree. The mans statement would make no sense unless it was preceded by a Stride comment that contained the word prayer in it.
Also, there is little doubt in my mind that Stride was a victim of the ripper. A man wearing apeaked cap was seen by several witnesses that night-the broad shouldered man seen attacking Liz and the man talking to Eddowes along with the man who was heard making the prayer statement. My bet is the ripper was wearing a peaked cap that night."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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