What's your profile for Jack?

[lynn cates]

pastime

Hello GUT.

"where did they get time to create the size families that were common in the 80's?"

I recall a line from the song where a dustman married at 86--"It's just to pass the time." (heh-heh)

Cheers.
LC

[GUT]

As a slight aside, pubs close about midnight, supper at 1:00 or so, up to look for work at 4:00, where did they get time to create the size families that were common in the 80's.

[GUT]

G'Day Errata

I don't dispute that there was a chance she was soliciting. however you also said:

It would explain why she was out at that time of night,

However a study of 1880's East End shows people out on the streets at all hours.

One Ripper witness, talks about being out to but supper at about 1:30 am, the Doss House kitchens were turned out at between 1:00 and 2:00, people looking for day work were known to head out at 4:00 am to seek a days labor.

I'm not saying that you are but we need to make sure that we don't fall into the trap of applying today's standards to a different time and place.

[lynn cates]

brackets

Hello Errata. Thanks.

"In the end I'm not sure it matters whether she was soliciting or not. But it's not an unreasonable assumption. It is however, just an assumption."

Quite. That is why I have suggested elsewhere to put that in brackets.

I daresay, however, we won't. Too much interest in that and all the rot about posing.

Cheers.
LC

[Errata]

I was trying to emphasise that one CAN change occupation.

Cheers.
LC

Of course one can.

We don't know if Stride was soliciting. Looking at her record, we know it happened in her youth, but surely ANY woman who could get a job off the streets would take it in a heartbeat. But we also know from the experiences of Unfortunate women in Victorian London that prostitution was a fairly common fallback position. A woman may work as maid or in a shop, but if he child goes to the hospital, she may walk the streets for a few nights to pay for it. There were no margins. Everyone was on the edge of ruin, everyone was skirting disaster, and there was no cushion.

She may have stayed out of it for years. Decades. But the slightest misfortune could have put her back on the streets soliciting. For her it would have been a known quantity. And if her need was great, there was no shame in it. It would explain why she was out at that time of night, if not where she was. In the end I'm not sure it matters whether she was soliciting or not. But it's not an unreasonable assumption. It is however, just an assumption.

[lynn cates]

keeping centuries straight

Hello Jon. Thanks.

"What about your doss money?"

Doss money? NOW who's conflating centuries? By the way, I know of plenty of such places to sleep--gratis.

"Do you think you would find much food waste in the bins of Victorian London?"

Really, how did we get to Victorian London? I thought your silly example had to do with MY supposed actions--and all in a futile attempt to predict Liz's behavior? Surely LIZ was by no dust bin?

"I thought you introduced the analogy of Stride and her history of prostitution and your past as a binman?"

I was trying to emphasise that one CAN change occupation. I suppose the force of that observation is lost on you?

Cheers.
LC

[Jon Guy]

Hi Lynn

I hope Tracy forgives me for jumping in.

Although that was an inept example, permit a response. If I had not worked for some years and were standing by a dustbin, there is, believe me, only one answer--I seek food.

Inept? You are a card, Lynn.

So you`d just go through the bins looking for food even though you could earn some cash in hand working the bins?
What about your doss money ?

When I worked at that trade there was MUCH good food discarded by various shops, etc.

Again, you are imposing your 21st Century view on Victorian London.
Do you think you would find much food waste in the bins of Victorian London ?

You queried Stride living with Kidney in squalor.
Firstly, she`d broken up with Kidney at the time of her murder, and she was living in the common lodging houses of Spitalfields. This equals squalor, Lynn.
Even when she was with Kidney she was in and out of workhouses and receiving help off the Church who described her as poor, and poor in that area at that time has a different meaning to today.

Can you kindly inform me what analogy this has to Liz Stride and soliciting?

I thought you introduced the analogy of Stride and her history of prostitution and your past as a binman?

[lynn cates]

analogy

Hello Tracy. Thanks.

Although that was an inept example, permit a response. If I had not worked for some years and were standing by a dustbin, there is, believe me, only one answer--I seek food.

When I worked at that trade there was MUCH good food discarded by various shops, etc.

Now, can you kindly inform me what analogy this has to Liz Stride and soliciting?

Cheers.
LC

[tji]

Hi Lynn

You may go with whatever you like.

Why thanks for your blessing on the matter

Answer? Did not see one.

Jon quite competently countered your dustman/prostitute argument 2 poss previously, that is the answer I was alluding to.

I have NEVER suggested the police lied. Why should they? They had very old information.

I have NEVER said that you did say they lied, I was answering your post requesting proof of prior conviction of prostitution.

Tracy

[Michael W Richards]

One of Stride's friends told a newspaper that she was a prostitute. We are not just relying on the Swedish record.
The police were also aware that she was a prostitute. I doubt that was because the Swedish authorities had passed the information on.
Also let's be aware that about 20 newspapers reported that Iscensmidt's brother came forward and gave him an alibi several days before the 'Double Event' and while Iscensmidt was in Grove Hall.

I believe the friend told reporters that he believed when she couldnt find regular work she did what she had to do to survive. Thats an Unfortunate by classification, not a prostitute. Besides, we have evidence that she was indeed getting regular work up until her death, charwoman work, just like the work she performed her last day.

The Unfortunates who get regular work dont need to sell themselves, so your premise is either that she enjoyed that work.....which would be countered by the fact that while a registered prostitute in Goteborg she applied to be stricken from those records due to finding decent work as a nanny.....or that you imagine the money she earned through her regular work was insufficient for her needs,...which would be countered by the fact that she was paid 6d to clean a few rooms that day....more than what was needed for "doss".

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Mike. With all due respect, there's what you know and then there's what I know. As for Stride, she had a police record for prostitution. We technically don't "know" that any of them were prostituting, but there's an equal chance..and a very good one...that all of them were.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

I'm not certain why you have taken a confrontational position in virtually every response to a post Ive made recently Tom, particularly when it is clear to both parties that you essentially agreed with my statement....that we dont know what the women were doing at the time they met their murderers. What youve decided not to accept though are the virtual confirmations about what Polly and Annie were doing that came from their own mouths,...Polly had been "earning" and drinking it away, and Annie had to pull herself together to "earn" her doss. Its pretty clear that those 2 were indeed soliciting.

Again, that has to be factored into the profile of at least their killer...choosing strangers to kill by posing as clients to street girls actively soliciting. If we dont have an excuse for the man to lure the women into a quieter place, then why would the women accompany a stranger into the dark....during that Fall in particular.

Cheers

[lynn cates]

no interest

Hello Pat. Thanks.

Doubt it. I agree with Sugden, Evans and Rumbelow. After the "Double Event," Isenschmid was no longer of interest to the Met.

Cheers.
LC

[Paddy]

Sheffield Evening Telegraph Friday 12th October 1888

Hi Lynn I was wondering if any of this was connected to Isenschmidt do you think?

The police on examination found that the murdered womans husband was a much older man than the individual now detained, and without sending for Catherine Eddowes sister they let the man go.
The police have under close observation in connection with the Whitechapel murder a man now an inmate of the Eastend infirmary, who was admitted since the murder under suspicious circumstances

Pat..............................................

[Observer]

Par for the course, coming up short again

Hello Jon. Thanks.

Squalor? Kidney was that bad?

But if I ever need an emotive speech writer . . .

Cheers.
LC

Not much of an answer to your excellent analogy Jon.

[Lechmere]

One of Stride's friends told a newspaper that she was a prostitute. We are not just relying on the Swedish record.
The police were also aware that she was a prostitute. I doubt that was because the Swedish authorities had passed the information on.
Also let's be aware that about 20 newspapers reported that Iscensmidt's brother came forward and gave him an alibi several days before the 'Double Event' and while Iscensmidt was in Grove Hall.