What's your profile for Jack?

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Tom,

Yes, but the point is that even a prostitute can take a day off. What I was trying to point out was that Jack would have no way of knowing (even if he was aware that she was a prostitute) whether she was available that night unless he approached her. Once approached, whether she was actively soliciting or not, we can't say with certainty what her response would be.

c.d.

But a stranger would have had a devil of a time getting some woman who wasnt soliciting to accompany him to a dark corner cd...no-one had forgotten a killer was still on the loose.

A working street prostitute by definition solicits payment from strangers for performing sex acts. She has to go to dark spots with strangers.

If Liz wasnt soliciting, and a stranger came to her trying to get her into the passageway, there would have been a struggle and sounds from Liz. According to the evidence of Liz Strides clothing, she wasnt in a struggle...and no-one heard a scream for help.

Im sure youve seen how Israel might provide the impetus and the confirmation for Liz to have screamed and struggled, but in his story that ends outside the gates. And if she isnt soliciting, then how does he, or someone new, then get Liz all the way in the passageway? Without more struggles and screams of course.

Cheers

[c.d.]

Hey, don't look at me, Tom. I'm on your side.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

I've also been able to place Stride in "that area" (around Tiger Bay) on the Thursday prior to her murder. She was visiting a friend and revealed that she was working as a prostitute. So yes, Stride was an active prostitute.

And yes, when two women are killed in the same way - and not a common way, I might add - within an hour and a short walk from one another, and without apparent motive, then you do in fact have a linkage unless investigation should turn up a reason to believe they were not related. The thorough investigations that followed did not turn up such a reason.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Tom, what you've "proven" is that Liz did occasionally prostitute herself, which isnt disputed as I mentioned. Youve provided no proof, nor does the report, that on that night, at that location, she was doing just that.

Liz Strides murder is duplicated by a Mr Brown on the very same night, a single throat cut with a knife....the third knife murder on the Double Event night,.. so how she was dispatched when compared with Kates murder was more common. 2 of 3 women were killed that way that night.

You mentioned "without apparent motive"....precisely the point. We dont know the motives for those murders, and therefore should not just assume they are the same.

Cheers Tom

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Tom,

Yes, but the point is that even a prostitute can take a day off. What I was trying to point out was that Jack would have no way of knowing (even if he was aware that she was a prostitute) whether she was available that night unless he approached her. Once approached, whether she was actively soliciting or not, we can't say with certainty what her response would be.

c.d.

Yes, that's true. It just gets a bit tiresome for me that so many seem desperate to omit Stride as a Ripper victim. Why is that? And to do so they have to create fiction, or choose to believe others' fiction. Even Don Rumbelow is doing this now, presumably to seem cool and relevant. It's bad history.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[c.d.]

Hi C.D., thanks. But Swanson's report was unambiguous. They discovered she was a prostitute. They didn't merely consider her one out of blind bias.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,

Yes, but the point is that even a prostitute can take a day off. What I was trying to point out was that Jack would have no way of knowing (even if he was aware that she was a prostitute) whether she was available that night unless he approached her. Once approached, whether she was actively soliciting or not, we can't say with certainty what her response would be.

c.d.

[Tom_Wescott]

And Tom, Ive seen this argument before,... and Ive seen as much evidence of that presumption about Liz Stride's main method of earning a living as you present with yours. Liz Strides most recent history just prior to her death is the only relevant data we need to assess, prior charges like a D & D in 87 allow us a broader picture of Liz, but they wont help answer the question "why was she at that spot... on that night?". The fact that she became single that week,... like Kate and John suddenly sleeping apart, or Mary and Joe separating a little over a week prior to her murder, these must be considered as potential influences as to why the women were where they were when they were killed.

I've also been able to place Stride in "that area" (around Tiger Bay) on the Thursday prior to her murder. She was visiting a friend and revealed that she was working as a prostitute. So yes, Stride was an active prostitute.

And yes, when two women are killed in the same way - and not a common way, I might add - within an hour and a short walk from one another, and without apparent motive, then you do in fact have a linkage unless investigation should turn up a reason to believe they were not related. The thorough investigations that followed did not turn up such a reason.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello Lynn,

How exactly would Jack know whether or not Liz was soliciting unless he approached her? And once approached, what would prevent Liz from accepting Jack's offer? Even if she had been on a date earlier that evening, we have no evidence that the date was still in progress.

Tom provided evidence that the police considered her to be a prostitute. She is standing by herself late at night. No lint on her skirt and a flower are now moot points. The question is what would she do if approached by Jack with a generous offer for her services?

c.d.

Hi C.D., thanks. But Swanson's report was unambiguous. They discovered she was a prostitute. They didn't merely consider her one out of blind bias.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Michael W Richards]

As Observer points out, although with bias...there was a killer out that night who many assume to have been Jack, Observer being one of them, ...but that fact alone does nothing to create a linkage to another murder with a single cut, an hour earlier.... in another part of town.

And Tom, Ive seen this argument before,... and Ive seen as much evidence of that presumption about Liz Stride's main method of earning a living as you present with yours. Liz Strides most recent history just prior to her death is the only relevant data we need to assess, prior charges like a D & D in 87 allow us a broader picture of Liz, but they wont help answer the question "why was she at that spot... on that night?". The fact that she became single that week,... like Kate and John suddenly sleeping apart, or Mary and Joe separating a little over a week prior to her murder, these must be considered as potential influences as to why the women were where they were when they were killed.

Its never been contested that all 5 of the women in the Canonical Group at some point in their lives prostituted themselves...just like hundreds of others in that district at that time. At least 1 of them seems to have made a career choice in that direction. In the case of Stride however we have ample evidence that she very often in her past, and certainly in her immediate past, managed to find respectable work.

The man who killed Polly, then Annie...sought out working street prostitutes. I dont think anyone has suggested he had prior knowledge of them, or that factor wasnt relevant, from the standpoint of opportunity or preference. Of course it was. Its just as relevant that we determine as best we can whether that same condition is Universal within the Canonical Group victims.

In the case of Liz Stride, and Kate Eddowes, and the only one of the five that seemed to make her living solely off prostitution and generous men, we cannot say with any certainty that their circumstances on the night they are killed forced them into a situation where they placed themselves in dark corners with men they did not know, or that we can be certain of their motivations for being where they were.

Cheers

[Tom_Wescott]

The police investigation determined that Stride was a prostitute. She was not killed by Michael Kidney. She was observed with various men in the hours prior to her death. She was also observed standing alone on the street. She was killed within an hour, within the same general area, and in the same manner as another prostitute. Both of these women were killed away from Spitalfields but had lived on the same street in Spitalfields and worked in the same two professions since 1881 and 1882 respectively.

The overwhelming weight of the evidence points to them having been killed by the same person or persons. As I've demonstrated in my largely ignored essays is the FACT that the arguments to exclude Stride as fed to us for over 20 years in Ripper books are based on totally erroneous data. The only difference between her murder and Eddowes is the lack of abdominal mutilation, which can certainly be explained by a number of other factors.

Whether or not Stride was killed by someone other than Eddowes' slayer should no longer be a question. But were Stride and Eddowes killed by the same person who killed Nichols and Chapman? And were Nichols and Chapman killed by the same person who killed Smith and Tabram?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Observer]

O we're all off to Whitechapel in the green in the green

Hello Lynn,

How exactly would Jack know whether or not Liz was soliciting unless he approached her? And once approached, what would prevent Liz from accepting Jack's offer? Even if she had been on a date earlier that evening, we have no evidence that the date was still in progress.

Tom provided evidence that the police considered her to be a prostitute. She is standing by herself late at night. No lint on her skirt and a flower are now moot points. The question is what would she do if approached by Jack with a generous offer for her services?

c.d.

And make no bones about it Jack was out and about on the night in question. Or was that the Fenian Brotherhood?

Mr Cates recently, when asked to take a vacation from this Forum, remarked that should he do so he hoped upon his return that all talk of Jack the Ripper had subsided. Says it all really. Not only is he unwilling to consider that only one hand, killed Nichol's through to Kelly, at the very least, but that all of us, who believe the above to be the case, should just drift away with our tails between our legs.

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

How exactly would Jack know whether or not Liz was soliciting unless he approached her? And once approached, what would prevent Liz from accepting Jack's offer? Even if she had been on a date earlier that evening, we have no evidence that the date was still in progress.

Tom provided evidence that the police considered her to be a prostitute. She is standing by herself late at night. No lint on her skirt and a flower are now moot points. The question is what would she do if approached by Jack with a generous offer for her services?

c.d.

[Observer]

Another twist another turn

Hello Tom. Thanks.

Here's my dilemma.

Poster: "Stride was a prostitute."

Me: "Well, she was so considered. But what of the night she died?"

Poster: "Makes no difference. Jack THOUGHT she was soliciting."

Me: "Jack?"

Poster: "Yes, you fool."

Me: "Why Jack?"

Poster: "Because, you dolt, he was the only one who killed prostitutes. And Liz WAS a prostitute."

Cheers.
LC

Not quite. Acting in a manner which would suggest she was a prostitute.

[lynn cates]

sitting

Hello Michael. Thanks.

But I haven't one. Who knows whom is sitting on something relevant but cares not to divulge?

Cheers.
LC

[The Good Michael]

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Yes. That is my question.

Cheers.
LC

and what is your answer?

Cheers,

Mike

[lynn cates]

question

Hello Michael. Thanks.

Yes. That is my question.

Cheers.
LC