What's your profile for Jack?

[Tom_Wescott]

Not against? Impossible to determine. Being against a thing and forced to be subjected to it at the same time is very possible. Yes it makes logical sense, but logic is just a tool that can be wielded to suit its master. Given her past and at the time current scenario, it is not infeasible she would take such a course of action. It could be argued anyone might. Problem is we have no really good data to suggest she was or had been prostituting herself anytime around that time. Although, it wouldn't have been terribly an unlikely possibility. I wonder if Stride and Eddowes were not dissimilar. Both had "men" in the mix. I wonder at the dynamic their relationships might have taken on given particular circumstances. Kidney gets about hanged by some whilst Kelly seems to go unscathed. I wonder if it might not should be viewed oppositely. Kelly the pimp instead of Kidney. Kelly checked Eddowes close for money. Kidney got drunk and angry and wanted to do something about it. People express grief differently of course. Wow, I meandered toward tangent land. Shutting up now.

Good post. When it was decided by the Ripperati 20 years ago that the case needed "new views" in order to move forward, instead of doing better research they simply fiddled with what they had and decided to create a devil out of Michael Kidney and an angle out of John Kelly. Of course, in order to pin the Stride murder on Kidney, lies and sloppy research were put forth. In order to make a saint out of John Kelly, much had to be overlooked. But until the old books are replaced by new and better ones these myths will persist and will remain a thorn in the side of many of us.

As for the similarity of Eddowes and Stride, they both lived on the same street for 6 years (aside from the short periods Stride lived away with Kidney). They both would have eaten at the same shops, drank at the same pubs, bathed at the same facilities, and I'm pretty certain they worked at the same place (though not together).

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Tom_Wescott]

I think that Lynn answered the above Tom already, but as Ive said numerous times, the only 2 Canonicals we know were soliciting were Polly and Annie.....

Hi Mike. With all due respect, there's what you know and then there's what I know. As for Stride, she had a police record for prostitution. We technically don't "know" that any of them were prostituting, but there's an equal chance..and a very good one...that all of them were.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[GUT]

Hate to but in, but you know I can find no proof that people ever thought the earth flat, so they mustn't have. So There.

[lynn cates]

Erastosthenes

Hello CD. Thanks.

Of course, there were those who believed otherwise--who were familiar with and understood the work of Erastosthenes.

Then, too, many believed it flat simply because they had done no research. It LOOKED flat and so they accepted the story of others, without critical examination.

All too familiar.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello CD. Thanks.


Excellent idea. Repetition leads to boredom; boredom, to sleepiness. Perhaps after that break I'll return and find the JTR nonsense replaced by something serious.

Cheers.
LC

I don't think that is going to happen, Lynn. You might be better off trying to start your own website. You know, sort of a bizzaro Ripper website where no one believes in Jack. Of course for starters it might just be you and Michael. Still at one time people believed the world was flat so don't give up hope.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

repetition

Hello CD. Thanks.

"They have always been described as prostitutes even by the police at the time. I have to assume that there is a reason for that."

Of course. Just like there was a reason for suspecting Druitt, Kosminski, Tumblety and Klowsowski as "JTR."

"You might want to take a break from Casebook for a while and catch up on your sleep. You seem to be doing a lot of yawning."

Excellent idea. Repetition leads to boredom; boredom, to sleepiness. Perhaps after that break I'll return and find the JTR nonsense replaced by something serious.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

good game

Hello Patrick. Thanks. (He was in Grove Hall.)

Not bad--might strike Kidney.

I think you have identified why many are loath to abandon "JTR"--too good a game.

Cheers.
LC

[Observer]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

P.S. You might want to take a break from Casebook for a while and catch up on your sleep. You seem to be doing a lot of yawning.

Indeed, a spot of sheep counting is in order!

[c.d.]

Hello (yet again) CD. Thanks.

Whom? Certainly not I.

Prostitution has NOTHING to do with it--pro or con.

Yawn, yawn.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

And yet, to my knowledge, the victims in this case have never been described as being nuns, shop girls, members of parliament or ballerinas. They have always been described as prostitutes even by the police at the time. I have to assume that there is a reason for that.

c.d.

P.S. You might want to take a break from Casebook for a while and catch up on your sleep. You seem to be doing a lot of yawning.

[Patrick S]

Hello Patrick. Thanks.

I have no doubt that Polly and Annie were killed by the same hand. Both were soliciting, both were strangled, both had deep parallel cuts to the neck.

I think they were killed by a wandering lunatic. The most likely (in my mind) wore an apron and carried knives. At one point he tried to strangle his wife. When apprehended he claimed he had been getting sheep heads and entrails for resale. Moreover, he had a violent temper and was quite delusional.

The other ladies did not exhibit the traits that Polly and Annie did.

Cheers.
LC

Your 'wandering lunatic' sounds like a likely suspect indeed. In fact, I'm convinced that he would have likely been convicted of the Nichols and Chapman murders had he not been in an asylum (Colney Hatch?) on the night of the 'double event' and MJK. To my knowledge, his only 'alibi' for the crimes was that was detained at the time the later murders were committed. If memory serves, Abberline felt he was a promising suspect, as well. Presumably he changed his mind when the later killings occured. Taking it all a step further, one can very easily discount Stride. As well, one could argue that MJK exhibits all the characteristics of a 'rage killing' and that Barnett or Hutchinson are likely suspects. That leaves Eddowes. The murder itself is nearly identical to those of Nichols and Chapman, with the exception of the facial mutilations. Injuries of this type are often interpreted by investigators as a sign the victim was known by the attacker and specifically targeted. I have little doubt that Jacob Isenschmid would have been immediately arrested following Eddowes had he not been locked up.

So of the six (expanded from 5 just because) victims we'd have something like this?

Tabram = angry customer (soldier?)
Nichols = Jacob Isenschmid
Chapman = Jacob Isenschmid
Stride = Michael Kidney (?)
Eddowes = ?
Kelly = Hutchinson or Barnett

I've said this before, since we know so little, it sounds as good as anything else. I'm troubled that in order to make the theory work we have to discount completely the contemporary policework and assume it was almost completely incompetent.

A final note: I'd suggest that there WAS a Jack the Ripper even if he only killed Nichols and Chapman! It's just too good a name to abondon completely.

[lynn cates]

no connection

Hello (yet again) CD. Thanks.

Whom? Certainly not I.

Prostitution has NOTHING to do with it--pro or con.

Yawn, yawn.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

C5

Hello (again) CD. Thanks.

"If for the sake of argument, we eliminate Liz from the C5 since she was not mutilated . . ."

A weak reason. I have listed MANY better ones.

". . . you have still only accounted for two of the four remaining murders."

Alright. Nor have I touched Emma and Martha, nor yet Alice and Frances and those torsos. And, personal conjecture notwithstanding, I can't account for the Ramsey girl, Jonbenet.

"That would mean that there were two more killers. . ."

Perhaps more.

". . . roaming the streets of Whitechapel. . ."

Why roaming? What about IN Whitechapel or thereabouts? Does "roaming" somehow make the case more compelling?

". . . who remarkably also had a penchant for cutting women's throats and removing their internal organs."

Polly had no organs removed. If you wish to take THAT criterion, then we have Annie, Kate and "MJK" by one hand.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Lynn,

Yes, but then you also have people trying to argue that if it can be shown that the victim wasn't a prostitute then she couldn't have been a victim of JTR.

Yawn.

c.d.

[lynn cates]

jtr

Hello CD. Thanks.

"No "intelligent" talk about victimology? Yikes! Intelligent talk is already in short supply."

I'll say.

"But seriously, I don't see how that eliminates JTR."

Like this: "Ooh, ooh, it MUST be JTR, after all, he killed only prostitutes."

Yawn.

Cheers.
LC

[c.d.]

Hello Patrick. Thanks.

I have no doubt that Polly and Annie were killed by the same hand. Both were soliciting, both were strangled, both had deep parallel cuts to the neck.

I think they were killed by a wandering lunatic. The most likely (in my mind) wore an apron and carried knives. At one point he tried to strangle his wife. When apprehended he claimed he had been getting sheep heads and entrails for resale. Moreover, he had a violent temper and was quite delusional.

The other ladies did not exhibit the traits that Polly and Annie did.

Cheers.
LC

Hello Lynn,

If for the sake of argument, we eliminate Liz from the C5 since she was not mutilated, you have still only accounted for two of the four remaining murders. That would mean that there were two more killers roaming the streets of Whitechapel who remarkably also had a penchant for cutting women's throats and removing their internal organs.

c.d.