Sexual Theories

[Ms Diddles]

Regarding my 2021 post, to say that there was NOT a heightened sexual element, is rather naive. But who wants to admit this? I hoped here would be the forum to discuss this. Apparently not. Okay.

Well, let me ask: How did JTR take the bloody organs away? Newspaper? I do not know the common norms of the time. Where newspapers cheap? How did he wrap up the organs without walking home dripping with blood carrying a big package? Am I correct in saying this has not be discussed? In Morocco I was told an aspect of the dress was that people could hide packages of food so that others less fortunate would not be embarrassed that there was a visual separation of the haves from the haves-not. Maybe that was just my tour guide talking but it is possible to walk around without showing off your purchases.

JTR could not have hidden the organs in his clothes. The smell would have been impossible to get rid of.

From just my casual overview of JTR literature, he was not carrying anything. So, what is your theory? I understand organs are not that big, but there has to be some concealment and how do you think he did it? Did he hold the organs in his hand and then enter his dwelling without anyone seeing the blood dripping or the smell?

No one here that I read considers the practical applications of killing someone in Victorian London. He knew how to kill so that there was no blood on his clothes, but what about taking out the organs in the dark and where to hide them? Is it a messy but skillful application? Was the smell exciting to JTR? Of course, we cannot suggest this. Please tell me why this is not acceptable to discuss.

I am a woman. Perhaps there are not many of us on this site, but our views should be considered. Women think about things like how to hide the organs, the clothes, the smell, etc.

Hi Kwanitaka,

I'm a bit confused by your post too.

Quite a few of us (guys and girls) had indeed responded to discuss your topic.

There was chat about necrophilia, coprophilia and masturbation with organs, so no coyness here on anyones part!

Re how Jack transported the organs, I agree that's an interesting question.

Does anyone know how the bloodier bits of meat would be packaged in butcher shops to be carried home during the LVP?

I can find lots of images of ruddy-cheeked, buxom housewives carrying wicker baskets home from the shops with produce for their husband's dinner in the LVP, but no reference to what the meat was wrapped in.

It occurred to me that however that was done, Jack may have employed the same method.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Kwanitaka,

I'm a bit confused by your post too.

Quite a few of us (guys and girls) had indeed responded to discuss your topic.

There was chat about necrophilia, coprophilia and masturbation with organs, so no coyness here on anyones part!

Re how Jack transported the organs, I agree that's an interesting question.

Does anyone know how the bloodier bits of meat would be packaged in butcher shops to be carried home during the LVP?

I can find lots of images of ruddy-cheeked, buxom housewives carrying wicker baskets home from the shops with produce for their husband's dinner in the LVP, but no reference to what the meat was wrapped in.

It occurred to me that however that was done, Jack may have employed the same method.

hi diddles
i think he probably brought a rag or hanky or something like that to put them in.

[Ms Diddles]

hi diddles
i think he probably brought a rag or hanky or something like that to put them in.

Hi Abby,

You're probably right.

This thread just got me pondering how gory bits of meat were packaged for sale by butchers, or carried home by shoppers in the days before shrink-wrap, plastic bags and clingfilm though.

[DJA]

Rolled up in butchers paper and placed in string bags.

[Ms Diddles]

Rolled up in butchers paper and placed in string bags.

Thanks Dave!

[Parisi North Humber]

Perhaps we are over thinking Jack's base behaviour and the body parts were removed in something as simple as a poachers pocket, so called as they were water/liquid proof and hid the game from watchful eyes however now tends to be known as a game pocket. These types of pockets were placed in garments other than just a poacher would wear. Only a thought but if said pockets could hide a hare/rabbit/grouse or two then I'm sure a uteri or kidney shouldn't be too much of a struggle.

Helen x

[Ms Diddles]

Perhaps we are over thinking Jack's base behaviour and the body parts were removed in something as simple as a poachers pocket, so called as they were water/liquid proof and hid the game from watchful eyes however now tends to be known as a game pocket. These types of pockets were placed in garments other than just a poacher would wear. Only a thought but if said pockets could hide a hare/rabbit/grouse or two then I'm sure a uteri or kidney shouldn't be too much of a struggle.

Helen x

Hi Helen,

As with so many things, I guess we will never know for sure but yeah, a poachers pocket is a good shout and one which I hadn't considered.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Helen,

As with so many things, I guess we will never know for sure but yeah, a poachers pocket is a good shout and one which I hadn't considered.

That has ‘euphemism’ written all over it.

[Ms Diddles]

That has ‘euphemism’ written all over it.

Hahahaha!

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, but it does have a kind of "posing pouch" ring to it doesn't it!

[Parisi North Humber]

And a moisture proof one at that lol

Helen x

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hahahaha!

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, but it does have a kind of "posing pouch" ring to it doesn't it!

I think that I’ve spent too much time watching Carry On films over the years Ms D

[Parisi North Humber]

"I think that I’ve spent too much time watching Carry On films over the years Ms D"

One can never watch enough carry on films Herlock, as someone once said "all life is here".

Helen x

[Losmandris]

Just watching the new Netflix drama series on Jeffery Dahmer, Grimly fascinating. According to a psychiatrist in that Dahmer suffered? from splanchnophilia which is a sexual attraction to internal organs (including there shiny surfaces?) It was a new one on me and wonder if it was something shared with JtR. I think it is more applicable than other paraphilias such as Necrophila!

[The Rookie Detective]

This is an interesting and fascinating thread; to which I would like to add some of my thoughts...

I believe that with the Ripper there was a complex combination between the gratification he took from Post- Mortem cutting and the need and desire to dominate and control his victim.

It is arguable whether or not there was a sexual motive; but I would suggest that the way in which he chose to pose the women, is indicative of a man who 'got off' on what he did to his victims and moreover; the way he left them to be found.

While there's no indication that he punished and/or tortured his victims; this may have been partially due to the time parameters in which the Ripper had to operate. It surely is no coincidence that MJK suffered the worst injuries and that she was murdered inside her room. If MJK was for example murdered outside, then it is likely her injuries would have been less severe.

It is also interesting to note that MJK aside; he chose to mutilate women in their 40's.
When regarded as a standalone aspect of the case, it is perhaps another clue as to his motivations.

So we have a killer who chooses primarily to kill and mutilate women in their 40's.
When we look at each of the alleged victims and observe them as a collective, we can see some distinct key signature patterns to the physicality of his kills.
For example if we were to lay each victim side by side and compare them physically, we can see there are a few striking similarities.
It is theses similarities which act as markers to the psychological framework of his kill choices.

We see for example that the killer cut removed and then placed the intestines over the victims right shoulder.
Now this may be seen as merely a practical convenience for him to navigate into the abdominal cavity, but I feel there's more at play here.
Note that the Ripper doesn't cut and remove the intestines entirely, but rather he keeps them connected to the body.
This is IMO a representation of a feotus connected to the body via the umbilical cord.

This is apparent In Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly in particular.
The killer also chooses to remove MJK's breasts and then use them as a way of supporting the victims head.

I believe the killer was drawn to older women who were on the cusp of being no longer able to carry children, ergo, approaching menopause.

This to me indicates a killer with an unhealthy obsession with older women figures and perhaps indicates that the Ripper was himself abused by his mother or another female relative.

But if this is the case then why choose MJK? Well, this may form part of the reason why she suffered the most.

How would a man who enjoyed mutilating women postmortem feel about women who make a choice to give away their bodies to men so easily for money?

While the victims he chose may have been easy targets, there is still an element of consistency in that he chose to kill women who were either prostitutes and/or women who had fallen from a place of relative stability.

I believe that the Ripper stalked his victims for some time and that his kills were more planned and meticulous than we perhaps realise.
He chose his victims and perhaps even dated or spent time with them before killing them.

But going back to the potential sexual motive; while there was no apparent evidence of intercourse or seminal fluid being present at the kill sites; it does not mean that he wasn't still motivated by sex.
I would suggest that in all probability that the Ripper was driven by the need to dominate, control, and by the need to dehumanise his victims as much as possible.

This act of dehumanisation also indicates a level of rage and disgust towards his victims, and that perhaps explains why the killer may have been torn between sexually aroused by an "easy" woman but then feeling disgusted by everything they did and represented.

The idea of the Ripper being torn between wanting and needing to express a sexual desire and fantasy, but then combined with the feeling of disgust and a want to obliterate and mutilate, perhaps provides us with the reasons why the injuries inflicted on the women were a mix of decisive ritualistic choices contrasted with confused erratic cuts.

There is also an element of exploration from the killer's perspective. It is almost as though the killer chose to open up his victims and then explore the boundaries of what he could do and find with his knife.
Like a child rummaging through a packet of pick&mix sweets to see what's hidden inside.

And that's where I believe this all links together; the Ripper had a need to see what his victim was made of; quite literally.
This also extends to wanting to see if they were pregnant.

By cutting out MJKS heart, he is telling us that he wants to show the world that she's heartless.
He is also dehumanising her and attacking her femininity by removing her breasts. As though he is highlighting that by removing her breasts, she is now unable to nuture a child.

When we also consider that the killer didnt just cut the abdomen, but he also attacked the reproductive organs; this also shows that he had a motivation to kill and mutilate that was based on a woman's natural ability to nature and suckle an offspring.

And when we then add in the fact he cut and sliced the face, then we can see that the killer is trying to completely eradicate his victims identity.
As though he sees her as nothing more than a piece of meat.
Like a butcher to a pig.

I believe that his inner rage stemmed from the idea that he hated the idea of older women giving themselves away so cheaply.
By attacking their womb, he is insuring they can no longer hold a child.

On that basis, did the Ripper's own mother conceive in her 40's?
Was the Ripper himself the result of illegitimacy?


In summary; I believe the truth lies in a combination of all the above and more. The Ripper was a complex individual who almost certainly suffered from some form of disassociative personality disorder and perhaps schizophrenia.

I would also suggest that he had been the victim of abuse from a female family member, perhaps his own mother.
I would also suggest that his father worked as a Butcher, or some trade which allowed the Ripper to watch and then over time learn to use a knife to cut efficiently.

The idea that he was an insane lunatic does not explain the evidence at hand and his criminal profiling suggests a man who was much more in the background and unnoticed.

It's always the quiet ones you have to watch.

A lesson that the police at the time failed to appreciate or understand due to all the ridiculous antisemitic rhetoric.


Lots to ponder methinks


RD

[c.d.]

By cutting out MJKS heart, he is telling us that he wants to show the world that she's heartless.
He is also dehumanising her and attacking her femininity by removing her breasts. As though he is highlighting that by removing her breasts, she is now unable to nuture a child.

When we also consider that the killer didnt just cut the abdomen, but he also attacked the reproductive organs; this also shows that he had a motivation to kill and mutilate that was based on a woman's natural ability to nature and suckle an offspring.

But then we also have to determine what cutting the flesh off her thigh indicates. I think it is too easy to get carried away with symbolism here. I think cutting flesh is simply cutting flesh. There is only so much to go around.

c.d.