The victim that survived a JtR attack

[caz]

I wonder...

On the early morning of Thursday 27th September, when this incident occurred, the Dear Boss letter, dated 25th, was about to be received and read by the Central News Agency.

Was this Jack, hoping to get to work again that morning, to make good on his promise in timely fashion?

Love,

Caz
X

[Observer]

Didn't Sir Henry Smith report that passing off low denomination coins as sovereigns, and half sovereigns was a common occurrence in London? Medals, and tokens also being used. Also, I believe the Ripper was efficient enough, at that point in time, that had the woman encountered the man in question, I doubt she would have emerged unscathed from her ordeal. Why offer two "half sovereigns" wouldn't one have been enough? Shades of Annie Chapman here.

Another bogus incident in my eyes. Another chancer. There were plenty of them about with regard to the Ripper investigation.

[Joshua Rogan]

Oh, and I calculated incorrectly, it's a mere 4 month's bed money. Still, that's sleeping arrangements sorted until Xmas, which is nothing to be sniffed at.

Dear oh dear, miscalculated again - I think I doubled originally when I should have halved. Two half-sovereigns is worth one pound=240 pennies=two months doss. Which is still sixty times what I understand was the going rate of 4d.

[Wickerman]

Hi Eten,

I've always wondered if the woman in the article below from the Lloyd's Weekly News of 30 September was such a victim...

"Last night a correspondent furnished us with another strange story of an incident occurring early on Thursday morning, near to the scene of the four murders. He states that early in the morning a woman was sitting sleeping on some steps in one of the houses in Dorset-street, when she was awoke by a man who asked her whether she had any bed to go to, or any money to pay for a lodging. She replied that she had not, upon which he said he had money, and then gave her what she thought was two half-sovereigns. She went with him down a passage, and when there he seized her by the throat and tried to strangle her. A scuffle ensued between them, in which she screamed and got away. The next morning she found that what he gave her was two farthings machined round the edge like gold coins. She described him as being a man with a dark moustache, and dressed in a rough frieze blue overcoat."

Not that it helps us a lot in the sense of a useful physical descriprion of the attacker, but it's interesting that the attack took place only 3 days before "the double event" and might fit with how the Ripper went to work.

Cheers,
Frank

If that is a genuine example, it does answer the query of why the killer scattered their possessions around (Chapman, Eddowes), he was looking for the coins he gave them. Also, why no money was found on the victims.
If the police/public learned how he enticed his victims streetwalkers would be on their guard for anyone flashing polished farthings around. Though this isn't the first we've read about polished farthings.

In this example, rather than threaten the victim with a knife, he attempted to choke her which is more aligned with Jack the Ripper in my view. I believe he was a strangler who used a knife to mutilate, as opposed to a knife wielding maniac. The first sign of a knife would make any woman scream, but choking is more of a sneak attack not always obvious.
I doubt the vicitms ever saw a knife.
Plus the date, apparently on the 27th, he was ready to strike again.
This to me sounds like a genuine incident involving JtR.

[Wickerman]

Dear oh dear, miscalculated again - I think I doubled originally when I should have halved. Two half-sovereigns is worth one pound=240 pennies=two months doss. Which is still sixty times what I understand was the going rate of 4d.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the amount offered.
Again, assuming this is a genuine story.

The 'fact' she held two polished farthings in her hands testifies to what he offered her, regardless whether it makes sense to us.
It's what we must regard as material evidence, which is quite different than her just claiming he offered two farthings. If the reporter didn't see the farthings then she may have just made it up, but if he did then it isn't for us to judge the rationale of an irrational killer.
As I said above, there are other small circumstances about this incident that make it very interesting.

[Joshua Rogan]

I wouldn't be too concerned about the amount offered.
Again, assuming this is a genuine story.

The 'fact' she held two polished farthings in her hands testifies to what he offered her, regardless whether it makes sense to us.
It's what we must regard as material evidence, which is quite different than her just claiming he offered two farthings. If the reporter didn't see the farthings then she may have just made it up, but if he did then it isn't for us to judge the rationale of an irrational killer.
As I said above, there are other small circumstances about this incident that make it very interesting.

I hadn't thought of that...perhaps she lied about the farthings being polished to look like half-sovereigns to show she wasn't bought too cheaply?

[Yabs]

I need to look up her story, but sceptical if Annie claimed it was JtR rather than the police identifying the possibility.

Would this be her? This is from 24th November 1888.

[Losmandris]

Absolutely, Los!

The aborted attempts may have involved no violence or threat of violence whatsoever.

It could have been something as simple as engaging a prostitutes services, then backing out promptly if the circumstances didn't feel right for whatever reason.

Like you say, it's impossible to verify as it would have gone unreported and likely unremarked.

it would probably appear completely inconsequential to the intended victim.

If I could, I'd build a time machine and go back, plant myself among the unfortunates and ask these kind of questions.

Really getting into the "nitty gritty" of their transactions so to speak.

Perhaps they would talk more freely to a fellow female rather than a dude cop!

Anyway, sadly I don't have a time machine so I'm left speculating.....!

I think by asking the right questions, there would be/would have been a very good good chance to discover who the murderer was. As has been often speculated, he was probably living in plain sight.

[Losmandris]

Hi Frank,

I agree that there is no reason to doubt the possibility that the ripper had unsuccessful of aborted attempts either before or during the series. You’re quote seems to me to be a perfect example of this possibility. Despite any experience or efficiency that the killer might have gained I’m guessing that he’d have been in a state of excitement/nervous tension? This might lead to making a grab for the woman a split second too soon or perhaps while she was moving? One tiny error and the victim might have a chance to scream out or perhaps wriggle free? Then there would have been the consideration that some women are much stronger than others or are more handy in a fight.

Although we don’t know the woman’s background we know that she was penniless and homeless and desperate enough to go down a passageway with a complete stranger for money so she may or may not have resorted to prostitution previously. I’d say that this this could very well have been a failed attempt by the ripper and there may have been more.

I really don't want to start anything and please everyone, lets not! But that is why I think Stride 'is' a JtR victim. I think either he or she did something to cause things to be ended quickly. He may not have been as skilled at 'making a move' as we think was not Nichols very drunk, Chapman quite ill and MJK in bed. Not sure with Eddowes, was he just lucky in his attempt?

[Losmandris]

Would this be her? This is from 24th November 1888.

I don't think that this matches the killers MO. I think he would have attempted to strangle her first, with, as Wickerman alluded to earlier, the knife only being brought out after the victim was deceased.

[Abby Normal]

If that is a genuine example, it does answer the query of why the killer scattered their possessions around (Chapman, Eddowes), he was looking for the coins he gave them. Also, why no money was found on the victims.
If the police/public learned how he enticed his victims streetwalkers would be on their guard for anyone flashing polished farthings around. Though this isn't the first we've read about polished farthings.

In this example, rather than threaten the victim with a knife, he attempted to choke her which is more aligned with Jack the Ripper in my view. I believe he was a strangler who used a knife to mutilate, as opposed to a knife wielding maniac. The first sign of a knife would make any woman scream, but choking is more of a sneak attack not always obvious.
I doubt the vicitms ever saw a knife.
Plus the date, apparently on the 27th, he was ready to strike again.
This to me sounds like a genuine incident involving JtR.

hi wicky
agree. if true this is undoubtedly an aborted ripper attack.

[etenguy]

Would this be her? This is from 24th November 1888.

Hi Yabs

The story differs slightly but in all likelihood this is the same attack. Other posters have cast doubt on parts of this story and I think it unlikely this is a ripper attack.

[etenguy]

hi wicky
agree. if true this is undoubtedly an aborted ripper attack.

Hi Abby

I agree with you, and if true it provides us with some insight. However, it is a bit vague (a woman, a correspondent etc...) I wonder if this is just a story or was a real incident. If a real incident, then I would expect this to be reported in other newspapers or followed up by Lloyd's later - if I get some time at the weekend, I'll have a look to see what I can find.

[Observer]

Would this be her? This is from 24th November 1888.

I've been looking for that incident Etenguy, it's the first thing that sprung to mind when reading of the "other" incident, thanks to Yabs for posting it. I agree. I believe they are the same incident. If memory serves me well, I believe it later transpired that the woman had concealed a coin in her mouth, obviously the punter wasn't amused and attacked her. Like you I don't believe this to have been a Ripper attack.

[JeffHamm]

This is interesting. Shame we don't have a bit more details, like where on Dorset Street she was sleeping, or what passage they went down. Counting Little Pasternoster Row as a "passage", there looks to be 4 possibilities, LPR, a passage into "New Court", a passage into an unnamed court (on my map), and then the passage into Miller's Court.

If this is JtR, and if he was drinking in the pubs prior to his murders (which I think is likely enough to be a working hypothesis; alcohol and drug use prior to murders is commonly the case), then it is worth noting that there were 3 pubs right in that immediate area (western end of Dorset Street, counting the one at the west end of White's Row). Those would be locations well worth investigating by the police, and then expanding outwards to take in other nearby pubs and such. If JtR were a regular at some of these pubs, finding out who was there on the important nights in question could have provided some leads. Whether or not they would have panned out is anybody's guess.

- Jeff