The Absence Of Evidence

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Well done. I'm not surprised. This always seems to happen (Just when I thought I had all the answers, they changed all the questions).

Your quote in your previous post had "Just at that time Eagle, a member of the club, and the constables arrived.". Are you calling this "Just after" or have you found another report?

Of course you still have the dilemma of deciding whether you prefer Spooner's statement over that of Diemshitz because it better suits your case. Just kidding.

Cheers, George

True, but Diemshutz is vague, and his "just at that moment" could be applied to when they arrived, or at the time Spooner lifted her head, which cannot be the same time. So there is a distance of time between the two events, we just don't know how many minutes.
Whereas Spooner is more precise, he separates the time they arrived from the time PC Lamb (along with Eagle, etc.) arrived, by saying he stood by the body for about 4-5 minutes before PC Lamb arrived.
I'm not concerned about how many minutes, I need to establish that 'a' happened before 'b', and Spooner confirms that for me.

[GBinOz]

True, but Diemshutz is vague, and his "just at that moment" could be applied to when they arrived, or at the time Spooner lifted her head, which cannot be the same time. So there is a distance of time between the two events, we just don't know how many minutes.
Whereas Spooner is more precise, he separates the time they arrived from the time PC Lamb (along with Eagle, etc.) arrived, by saying he stood by the body for about 4-5 minutes before PC Lamb arrived.
I'm not concerned about how many minutes, I need to establish that 'a' happened before 'b', and Spooner confirms that for me.

Hi Jon,

A reasonable explanation, but I still slightly prefer my scenario.

I previously said I thought that Jacobs was a club member. He may have been, but the list that I thought I remembered was in fact of members of the local vigilance committee:

THE MEMBERS OF THE WHITECHAPEL VIGILANCE COMMITTEE

George Lusk - President	Joseph Aarons - Treasurer
Mr. B. Harris - Honorary Secretary	Mr. J. A. Cohen - Committee Member
Mr. Reeves - Committee Member	Mr. Haughton - Committee Member
Mr. Lindsay - Committee Member	Mr. Jacobs - Committee Member
Mr. Isaacs - Committee Member	Mr. Mitchell - Committee Member
Mr. Hodgins - Committee Member	Mr. Barnett - Committee Member
Mr. Lord - Committee Member	Mr. Lawton - Committee Member
Mr. Vander Hunt - Committee Member	Mr. Sheed - Committee Member
Mr. Van Gelder - Committee Member	Albert Bachert - Chairman (1889)

Apart from Jacobs, we also see Harris and Isaacs.

Cheers, George

[Michael W Richards]

Thats a good post George, I noted the name Issacs there. If we had access to a members roster for the club that Fall, its possible that name might appear on it. Which would make Diemshitz's claim he went out with Issac[s] less contested.

[Wickerman]

Since Lamb testified he didn't have a watch, one might draw a conclusion that a clock was visible from the fixed point or that 426H had a watch.

The 1882 Post Office Street Directory shows Birkle Brothers, a clock manufacturer at 103 on the north side of Comm. Rd. just about 6 doors west of being opposite Grove St, which was on the south side.

The tobacconist (William J. Harris & Son) that Diemshutz references (in some reports a baker, which is wrong), where he saw a clock, was number 84 Comm. Rd, at the top corner of Berner St. as you turn east.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

A reasonable explanation, but I still slightly prefer my scenario.

I previously said I thought that Jacobs was a club member. He may have been, but the list that I thought I remembered was in fact of members of the local vigilance committee:

THE MEMBERS OF THE WHITECHAPEL VIGILANCE COMMITTEE

George Lusk - President	Joseph Aarons - Treasurer
Mr. B. Harris - Honorary Secretary	Mr. J. A. Cohen - Committee Member
Mr. Reeves - Committee Member	Mr. Haughton - Committee Member
Mr. Lindsay - Committee Member	Mr. Jacobs - Committee Member
Mr. Isaacs - Committee Member	Mr. Mitchell - Committee Member
Mr. Hodgins - Committee Member	Mr. Barnett - Committee Member
Mr. Lord - Committee Member	Mr. Lawton - Committee Member
Mr. Vander Hunt - Committee Member	Mr. Sheed - Committee Member
Mr. Van Gelder - Committee Member	Albert Bachert - Chairman (1889)

Apart from Jacobs, we also see Harris and Isaacs.

Cheers, George

Excellent George, I must admit I have not seen that before.
Didn't you say Backert was not really a member, he only claimed to be?
I read it somewhere, just can't recall where.

Interestingly, when Jews are called by a first name but add an 's', it usually suggests it is there first name, not a surname.
Like Isaacs was Isaac Kozebrodski, they pluralize a christian name, something we don't do.
So Jacobs could be Jacob xxxxxx, yet the list you post has a Mr Isaacs & a Mr Jacobs?

They may not be the people we are discussing here, Isaacs, and Jacobs were very common Jewish names.

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting that an Issacs also appears later in the Kelly investigation. And of course the reference to that surname by Diemshitz.

[Mark J D]

The tobacconist (William J. Harris & Son) that Diemshutz references (in some reports a baker, which is wrong), where he saw a clock, was number 84 Comm. Rd, at the top corner of Berner St. as you turn east.

Photo c.1890:




M.

[FrankO]

The 1882 Post Office Street Directory shows Birkle Brothers, a clock manufacturer at 103 on the north side of Comm. Rd. just about 6 doors west of being opposite Grove St, which was on the south side.

The tobacconist (William J. Harris & Son) that Diemshutz references (in some reports a baker, which is wrong), where he saw a clock, was number 84 Comm. Rd, at the top corner of Berner St. as you turn east.

Thanks for sharing that, Jon. I hadn't seen it before. So, that first clock you mention would be more or less directly on the other side of Commercial Road where PC 426 H was stationed.

Cheers,
Frank

[jerryd]

Morris Eagle refers to one man in the yard as Issac (singular) and then refers to a Jacobs in the next sentence.

Is there a chance it was Isaac Jacobs? The young man that was heading to McCarthy's shop on the night of the McKenzie murder? A pretty long shot, but ya never know.

[Michael W Richards]

Morris Eagle refers to one man in the yard as Issac (singular) and then refers to a Jacobs in the next sentence.

Is there a chance it was Isaac Jacobs? The young man that was heading to McCarthy's shop on the night of the McKenzie murder? A pretty long shot, but ya never know.

Hey Jerry,

The quote you refer to is this...from Eagle...."As soon as I entered the club I went to see a friend, who was in the upstairs room, and who was singing a song in the Russian language. Afterwards I joined my friend, and we sang together. I had been there about 20 minutes, when a member named Gilleman came upstairs and said, "There is a dead woman lying in the yard." I went down in a second, and struck a match. I could then see a woman lying on the ground, near the gateway, and in a pool of blood. Her feet were about six or seven feet from the gate, and she was lying by the side of the club wall, her head being towards the yard. Another member, named Isaac, was with me at the time. As soon as I saw the blood I got very excited and ran away for the police. I did not touch her.
The CORONER. - Did you see if her clothes were disturbed?
Witness. - I could not say. When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!"

I believe Diemshitz intimated he went the Fairclough route, didnt he? He does say.."I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased." That man is Spooner obviously.

Was the Issacs that moved around the corner from Mary Kelly the week she is killed Joseph or Jacob, cant remember offhand.

[jerryd]

Michael,

That was Joseph Isaacs.

[Michael W Richards]

Michael,

That was Joseph Isaacs.

Thanks Jerry. Oh, and I forgot to mention that it seems by the quote I posted that the Issac he came downstairs with and Jacobs who he saw leaving with someone going for help were 2 different people.

[GBinOz]

Didn't you say Backert was not really a member, he only claimed to be?
I read it somewhere, just can't recall where.

No, that wasn't me Jon.

[Wickerman]

Photo c.1890:




M.

Thankyou for this Mark.

Notice how narrow Berner St. looks, yet the Insurance Map shows 31 feet wide.

We also notice the blue circle on this map, a public water hydrant.

The hydrant appears to stand about where we see a lamppost on the west corner.
I spoke with a retired member of the municipal works who told me that in the 19th century it was common practice to install a hydrant tap at the foot of lampposts so any night workers had light to operate the valve.
I think we can see a circular plate just at the base of the lamppost?

[Wickerman]

Thanks for sharing that, Jon. I hadn't seen it before. So, that first clock you mention would be more or less directly on the other side of Commercial Road where PC 426 H was stationed.

Cheers,
Frank

Hi Frank.

I hope this is large enough to read.



No. 103 is on the north side, Grove St. is directly below the 'D' in R O A D
So yes, almost opposite.