The Absence Of Evidence

[GBinOz]

Yes, but that is not what Swanson wrote, you are using a different press account that refers to Deimshutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman.
They did run east along Fairclough street that is true, but Schwartz ran "as far as the railway arches", which probably means he ran passed his house and just kept running to the end of Backchurch Lane.

Hi Jon,

I think that Eagle said it was Diemshitz and Jacobs that left together. I seem to recall Kozebrodski saying that Diemshitz told him to go on his own.

I got the impression that Schwartz bolted south down Berner St, but if he did run away east on Fairclough this might match the story Wess related to the Echo of the killer being chased down Fairclough by a club member? But that would make Schwartz to suspect and Pipeman the club member.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Yes, but that is not what Swanson wrote, you are using a different press account that refers to Deimshutz & Kozebrodski running for a policeman.
They did run east along Fairclough street that is true, but Schwartz ran "as far as the railway arches", which probably means he ran passed his house and just kept running to the end of Backchurch Lane.

The mistaken police search theory must overlook the claim by Wess that the name of the man who gave chase was given to him and was not a club member. To me this suggests that the Schwartz story went through a number of revisions.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I think that Eagle said it was Diemshitz and Jacobs that left together. I seem to recall Kozebrodski saying that Diemshitz told him to go on his own.

I got the impression that Schwartz bolted south down Berner St, but if he did run away east on Fairclough this might match the story Wess related to the Echo of the killer being chased down Fairclough by a club member? But that would make Schwartz to suspect and Pipeman the club member.

Cheers, George

I remember debating this some time back.

Daily News reports Kozebrodski saying:
"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one."

Deimschutz says a man named "Isaacs" came out into the yard with him, then they both ran for police.
Kozebrodski's first name was Isaac, apparently.

Daily Telegraph reports Eagle saying:
"I went towards Commercial Road, Diemshutz, the club steward, and another member going in the opposite direction down Fairclough-street".

If you check Spooner's evidence he said he was standing in Fairclough-street at the Beehive pub when two jews ran passed him shouting "police" and "murder", they went as far as Grove-street and turned back.

This is where I think the confusion over those two reports comes into play.

Two men (Diemshutz & Kozebrodski) ran east on Fairclough, but three men (Diemshutz, Kozebrodski & Spooner) came back.
We read that Kozebrodski did not return to the club but ran passed and up to Commercial Rd. and found Eagle.
Whereas, Diemshutz & Spooner entered the yard.

Now, that report in the Echo came from an interview with William Wess, the secretary, who said that two men gave chase, one was a member of the club (Diemshutz), but the other wasn't (Spooner).
I think this shows that Wess only learned of the pursuit after they returned - Wess knew nothing of Kozebrodski's involvement. He just assumed the two men who returned were the same as the two men that left, its a natural mistake to make.

[Wickerman]

I just had to be sure about Kozebrodski's name

"Lewis Diemschitz [Louis Diemschutz] and Isaac Kozebrodski surrendered to their bail"

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/east_london_advertiser/ela890427.html

The two were long-time friends.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Now, that report in the Echo came from an interview with William Wess, the secretary, who said that two men gave chase, one was a member of the club (Diemshutz), but the other wasn't (Spooner).
I think this shows that Wess only learned of the pursuit after they returned - Wess knew nothing of Kozebrodski's involvement. He just assumed the two men who returned were the same as the two men that left, its a natural mistake to make.

By the time Wess spoke to the Echo, I'm sure he knew all the pertinent details. Most importantly in this regard, that the search for police began just after 1am. The Echo report states that the chase occurred at 12:45, and that is the time given by Schwartz. Wess was talking about the Schwartz incident, as he understood it. The chase (as the story goes) went down Fairclough street, with at least one of the men turning right, possibly into Christian street. That is where the railway arch is.

[Wickerman]

By the time Wess spoke to the Echo, I'm sure he knew all the pertinent details.

Not clear why you feel sure about that, Wess had left the club at 12:15 so knew nothing of the chase until the next day which was the same day the story appeared in print. Wess was clearly told the story by someone else.

Most importantly in this regard, that the search for police began just after 1am. The Echo report states that the chase occurred at 12:45, and that is the time given by Schwartz. Wess was talking about the Schwartz incident, as he understood it. The chase (as the story goes) went down Fairclough street, with at least one of the men turning right, possibly into Christian street. That is where the railway arch is.

The Schwartz chase doesn't have anyone shouting "police" as they run away, Schwartz makes no claim to have shouted, nor to be looking for police. He would surely have said if the man behind him had been shouting for police.

Spooner testified both men, who were jews, were shouting for "police" and "murder", so this doesn't sound like Schwartz running away and we don't even know if the 2nd man chased him that far, or even chased him at all. Pipeman chasing Schwartz is an assumption.

Neither does running eastward on Fairclough lead in any way to Backchurch Lane, the story as recited by Schwartz does not fit the Secretary's account of a chase.

Spooner saw Diemshutz & Kozebrodski running and shounting for "police" and "murder" eastward along Fairclough-street.

Some have even argued the translator used by Schwartz (Sunday evening) might have been Wess himself. Yet if that were the case Wess would know the chase he learned about on Monday was nothing to do with Schwartz - as no-one believed Schwartz to be the murderer.

[GBinOz]

Times, 2 Oct 1888:

Eagle:
When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!" On getting to the corner of Grove-street I saw two constables, and told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street.

Daily News 2 Oct 1888:
It seems that the particular corner of Mitre-square in which the body of the woman was found has long had an evil reputation. Said a man whose occupation for many years has thoroughly familiarized him with the locality and all that has gone on in it, "I have often heard the policeman who went this beat regularly for sixteen years say that that was a well-known resort, and from my own knowledge it is so. The place is well patrolled," he continued in reply to queries. "Yes, there's no doubt about that. The constable on the beat now is as regular as clockwork. You may tell to a minute when he'll be round."

So Eagle's opinion was that it was Jacobs that ran down Fairclough with another. Was this other Diemshitz?

Also an interest viewpoint on the accuracy of the police times.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Not clear why you feel sure about that, Wess had left the club at 12:15 so knew nothing of the chase until the next day which was the same day the story appeared in print. Wess was clearly told the story by someone else.

That someone else likely being Diemschitz. It's a fairly simple story - Diemschitz discovered the victim at 1am, club members determined she was dead and so set out to find a policeman. Can't we assume that Wess was intelligent enough to understand this?

The Schwartz chase doesn't have anyone shouting "police" as they run away, Schwartz makes no claim to have shouted, nor to be looking for police. He would surely have said if the man behind him had been shouting for police.

Spooner testified both men, who were jews, were shouting for "police" and "murder", so this doesn't sound like Schwartz running away and we don't even know if the 2nd man chased him that far, or even chased him at all. Pipeman chasing Schwartz is an assumption.

Neither Schwartz nor the Echo report mention shouts for the police. Why is Schwartz/Echo being blended with the police search? Doing so results in regarding both of the following statements to be true.

Wess thought a man was chased away from the murder scene at about 12:45. He was wrong.

Schwartz believed he was apparently chased away from the murder scene at about 12:45. He was right.

We are now entering the Twighlight Zone...

We only need look at Arbeter Fraint to see that the belief in a ~12:45 incident remains, days after the murder...

The first murder occurred on Saturday night about a quarter to one.

Where did this estimate come from? Sans any knowledge of Schwartz, all the authors of the paper would know is that the murder occurred sometime before 1am. That line from their report clearly hints at a link between Schwartz and the club.

Neither does running eastward on Fairclough lead in any way to Backchurch Lane, the story as recited by Schwartz does not fit the Secretary's account of a chase.

Spooner saw Diemshutz & Kozebrodski running and shounting for "police" and "murder" eastward along Fairclough-street.

I don't see why we need to end up Backchurch Lane. If you were confronted by a man exiting the beer house, while stepping off the curb onto Fairclough St, from the board school side of Berner St, in which direction along Fairclough St would you run? Common sense says; in the same direction as implied by the Echo report.

With Spooner, once again we see the Schwartz pattern - observers and participants in an event that are never identified, versus real people like Mortimer, Mrs D, young couple, Brown, and Spooner who see and hear nothing to back up the story.

Some have even argued the translator used by Schwartz (Sunday evening) might have been Wess himself. Yet if that were the case Wess would know the chase he learned about on Monday was nothing to do with Schwartz - as no-one believed Schwartz to be the murderer.

I think it was decided the story had to be changed, by the time Schwartz got to Leman street station that evening. They wanted a 'real' witness. So, the man being chased obviously had to stop being the murderer. Hence the peculiar Pipeman, who either chases Schwartz or runs away, for no apparent reason.

[Wickerman]

Times, 2 Oct 1888:

Eagle:
When I got outside I saw Jacobs and another going for the police in the direction of Fairclough-street, and I then went to the Commercial-road, all the time shouting "Police!" On getting to the corner of Grove-street I saw two constables, and told them that a woman had been murdered in Berner-street.
...

So Eagle's opinion was that it was Jacobs that ran down Fairclough with another. Was this other Diemshitz?

Interesting that you make no mention of the Telegraph where Eagle says he saw "Diemshutz, and another man going down Fairclough-street".
None of the other press accounts mention this 'Jacobs', so either it is a printing mistake, or it was another name used by Diemshutz.

It didn't occur to you to check the Echo coverage from the day before?
The Echo reporter was present at the inquest for Eagle's testimony, and that of Diemshutz who testified after him.

No mention of any 'Jacobs'.


I suggest you look at the Evening News of 1 Oct., they have an interview with Kozebrodski..

"I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me"... (Isaac M. Kozebrodski)

Remember, Kozebrodski came back with Diemshutz, but ran passed the club and up to Commercial Rd. to join Eagle in finding two constables.


The Evening News also gives an account by Diemshutz, who talks about him being joined by Kozebrodski in the yard, then he mentions Eagle...

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881001.html

"..A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went out to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did,.."

To what WE did.

Diemshutz & Kozebrodski, together.

[GBinOz]

Interesting that you make no mention of the Telegraph where Eagle says he saw "Diemshutz, and another man going down Fairclough-street".
None of the other press accounts mention this 'Jacobs', so either it is a printing mistake, or it was another name used by Diemshutz.
The Times quoted Eagle as saying "Jacobs and another going for the police". The other man was Diemshitz, although strangely Eagle didn't name him.

It didn't occur to you to check the Echo coverage from the day before?
The Echo reporter was present at the inquest for Eagle's testimony, and that of Diemshutz who testified after him.
No mention of any 'Jacobs'.
I checked the Echo coverage from the day before (Oct 1) and could find no reference to who went for the police. I did notice this:
"In the course of conversation (says the journalist) the secretary mentioned the fact that the murderer had no doubt been disturbed in his work, as about a quarter to one o'clock on Sunday morning he was seen- or, at least, a man whom the public prefer to regard as the murderer- being chased by another man along Fairclough-street, which runs across Berner-street close to the Club, and which is intersected on the right by Providence-street, Brunswick-street, and Christian-st., and on the left by Batty-street and Grove-street, the [two latter?] [?] up into Commercial-road. The man pursued escaped, however, and the secretary of the Club cannot remember the name of the man who gave chase, but he is not a member of their body. Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road.".

Two things to notice - Wess states the man who gave chase was NOT a member of the club, and, that 15 minutes elapsed between the discovery of the body and the location of the police constable (Lamb) in Commercial Road.

I suggest you look at the Evening News of 1 Oct., they have an interview with Kozebrodski..

"I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me"... (Isaac M. Kozebrodski)

Remember, Kozebrodski came back with Diemshutz, but ran passed the club and up to Commercial Rd. to join Eagle in finding two constables.

In the Daily News 1 Oct, Kozebrodski was reported saying "I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."
I went, not we went.

The Evening News also gives an account by Diemshutz, who talks about him being joined by Kozebrodski in the yard, then he mentions Eagle...

https://www.casebook.org/press_reports/evening_news/18881001.html

"..A man called Eagle, also a member of the club, went out to find a policeman; and going in a different direction to what we did,.."

To what WE did.

Diemshutz & Kozebrodski, together.

Diemshitz, Evening News Oct 1: We sent for the police without delay, but it was some time before an officer arrived; in fact we had some difficulty in finding one.

Hi Jon,

I recall that we discussed these points in another thread some time ago, and the conclusion was that Diemshitz had sent Koze out to find a constable and followed shortly after with Jacobs. Koze started down Fairclough but turned off into one of the side streets and either met Eagle in Commercial Road or returned to the club and accompanied Eagle from there. I don't think Eagle mentioned departing from the club with Koze.

From the Inquest, Daily Telegraph, Coroner to Diemshitz:

[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
[Coroner] Had the constables arrived then? - At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived.

Koze was with Eagle so he couldn't have been with Diemshitz when the latter returned with Spooner.

Cheers, George

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I would suggest that attempts to piece together the police search, in terms of who went where and when, are always going to be hindered by the states of mind of those involved. People were emotionally aroused or possibly even in a mild state of shock. That would not have helped in the laying down of accurate memories. Furthermore, the men involved were probably at least half tipsy. Just ask Morris Eagle...

In the club we had a rare good time. We were singing songs and all that sort of thing. Then there was a sudden scare among us; Diemschitz came in and said a woman had been murdered outside.

[Michael W Richards]

To what WE did.

Diemshutz & Kozebrodski, together.

Your explanation on this issue neglects to include the most relevant pieces of the puzzle. First, Issac Kozebrdoski was interviewed at the scene within an hour of the police arriving there, and he specifically, unequivocally states that he was "sent out by Diemshitz or some other member." It does in no way suggest that Issac K and Louis left together, in fact he continues to explain what he did, and where he went, and what he saw. It is clearly an account of someone who believes he was sent out for help alone. Secondly, there is no quote from Louis that he went with Issac Kozebrodski. There is a statement that says Louis went out with Issac[s], something which everyone seems to overlook. Ive heard stories that Issac Kozebrodski went by the name Issacs to some members, but I have never seen any validation of that claim, and why would he refer to him in the plural form anyway?

It seems clear that by using both statements that Issac Kozebrodksi went out, then Eagle, then.. perhaps.. Louis and someone named Issacs. Issac Kozebrodski sees Eagle and the policeman as he returns and joins them to head to the gates. The policeman said this happened at around 1am. Issac K says he was sent out after he was alerted to the body around 12:40. Spooner also gives that approximate time, so does Heschberg.

Thats Lamb saying he saw the men running at approximately 1am, and 3 people saying they were by the body at around 12:40-12:45. With Louis in attendance. This timing is substantiated by the timing that Lamb gives and the arrival time of Johnson. If they went for help and spent a few minutes searching, then came back with Lamb near 1am, .....ask yourself, what time would Issac K and Eagle have to have left the passageway to go for help?

Thats right...BEFORE Louis says he even arrived. It still amazes me that people just brush these fact aside...the continued pull towards evidence that is suspect is frankly remarkable to me even after all this time.

What doesnt agree with those statements? Statements made by Lave, Eagle and Mr and Mrs Diemshitz, all employed by the club. You are aware of course that the term anarchists used by the police was meant to infer "suspected criminals"? The word is used to describe bombing suspects, Fenians and other factions that performed acts of violence around London at that time. You know, the people that were being discussed at the public hearings of the Parnell Commission...running at the same time as these crimes?Some of these men were arrested in less than 6 months for assaulting police with clubs in that same yard.

Anarchist Witnesses whose lack of credibility and good standing in the community must be taken into account, and in this case, employees of that very club, would be aware of the negative perception of them in the community. they would also be aware that during the month of September, according to Anderson, door to door searches were conducted after Annies murder, and Anderson proclaimed that the killer was "ascertained" to be an immigrant Jew living in the area. Just like most of the men who attended the club, and all who worked there.

Your extension of credibility to them, and Israel, is generous.... but unearned and unwarranted.

I would suggest that if you would like to know what actually took place that night you use witnesses that have no reason to lie.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Issac K says he was sent out after he was alerted to the body around 12:40. Spooner also gives that approximate time, so does Heschberg.

Spooner's second estimate - 12:35 - will always be regarded as an error. A curious one perhaps, but still an error. Heschburg, the diligent fellow, gave his best estimate and was one of the two men who reported hearing that anomalous 'early' whistle. Issacs estimate must also be explained as an error, but it would be fair to ask at this point; why are all the estimates that don't agree with the accepted discovery time, earlier times? No one estimates 1:15, for example.

There is an interesting interpretation of the Schwartz incident, that has someone from the club, possibly the real discoverer of the body, alerting to another club member who is out on the street (i.e., Pipeman), of a man making his way from the murder scene - apparently the villain. The man nearest to the victim alerts his comrade - Lipski! - and the comrade sets out after the man, who begins to run. So, who might the real discoverer have been? Consider this point in the Arbeter Fraint's take. Now trace back to the point that Kozebrodski/Gilyarovsky would have been in a position to see the blood he refers to - you won't find it.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

I recall that we discussed these points in another thread some time ago, and the conclusion was that Diemshitz had sent Koze out to find a constable and followed shortly after with Jacobs. Koze started down Fairclough but turned off into one of the side streets and either met Eagle in Commercial Road or returned to the club and accompanied Eagle from there. I don't think Eagle mentioned departing from the club with Koze.

From the Inquest, Daily Telegraph, Coroner to Diemshitz:

[Coroner] Did you touch the body? - No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.
[Coroner] Had the constables arrived then? - At the very same moment Eagle and the constables arrived.

Koze was with Eagle so he couldn't have been with Diemshitz when the latter returned with Spooner.

Cheers, George

George, I already quoted Kozebrodski.


I suggest you look at the Evening News of 1 Oct., they have an interview with Kozebrodski..

"I immediately went for a policeman, and ran in the direction of Grove-street, but could not find one. Then I went into the Commercial-road, where I found two policemen. I brought them back with me"... (Isaac M. Kozebrodski)

First he went with Diemshutz, then went to find Eagle, and returned with him with the two constables.

[Michael W Richards]

Spooner's second estimate - 12:35 - will always be regarded as an error. A curious one perhaps, but still an error. Heschburg, the diligent fellow, gave his best estimate and was one of the two men who reported hearing that anomalous 'early' whistle. Issacs estimate must also be explained as an error, but it would be fair to ask at this point; why are all the estimates that don't agree with the accepted discovery time, earlier times? No one estimates 1:15, for example.

There is an interesting interpretation of the Schwartz incident, that has someone from the club, possibly the real discoverer of the body, alerting to another club member who is out on the street (i.e., Pipeman), of a man making his way from the murder scene - apparently the villain. The man nearest to the victim alerts his comrade - Lipski! - and the comrade sets out after the man, who begins to run. So, who might the real discoverer have been? Consider this point in the Arbeter Fraint's take. Now trace back to the point that Kozebrodski/Gilyarovsky would have been in a position to see the blood he refers to - you won't find it.

Ok, he made a mistake by 5 minutes, happy? Now they all agree on a time, they are not all wrong by 20 minutes or more. Doesnt it seem odd to you that you and others are arguing for a discovery time that is 20 minutes or more after a number of witnesses stated they were by the body? Because 1 witness who is the most responsible for anything bad happening on that property says so? You mentioned the Arbeter Fraint, at what time did the late November issue of that paper say the women was discovered murdered?

Dont bother...12:45.