The Absence Of Evidence

[c.d.]

Well let's try a hypothetical:

You are a trained detective. Let's say you were with Scotland Yard at the time of Stride's death. You are informed that the deceased was previously living with a man named Michael Kidney. He is described to you as a man who drinks heavily, who is known to have been physically abusive to the deceased on more than one occasion in the past and that the deceased had recently left him. Your response would be what?

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

You mention the word 'learn', Trev. If Stride's killer had never cut a throat before, he had to teach himself the best and safest way to do it in that busy location, and still he managed to kill her efficiently with a single slice, giving her no chance to scream or struggle. Would it really have been that easy for anyone to do?

Love,

Caz
X

Yes, and you are forgetting the main cause of deaths by the use of as knife was throat cutting in Victorian times

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Well let's try a hypothetical:

You are a trained detective. Let's say you were with Scotland Yard at the time of Stride's death. You are informed that the deceased was previously living with a man named Michael Kidney. He is described to you as a man who drinks heavily, who is known to have been physically abusive to the deceased on more than one occasion in the past and that the deceased had recently left him. Your response would be what?

c.d.

Times are differnet now to what they were back in Victorian times.

There are clear conflicts in the inquest tetsimony which there appears to be nothing to show they were ever clarified.

But thats nothing new with the WM we see many exmaples of such conflict in other inquest whihc also seem to have never been cleared up.

There seems to be no alibi for Kidney for the time of the murder on record. Now it is quite possible that the police did check him out, but we cannot rightly assume that as fact.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[c.d.]

Hello Trevor,

You are quite right that we cannot assume as fact that the police did in fact check out Kidney but I can only imagine three scenarios:

1. The police were complete idiots and it never occurred to them that he was a person of interest;

2. He had an alibi which they checked and confirmed;

3. He had no alibi and so they had Schwartz take a look at him.

There is no mention of scenario number 3 in any record and I simply cannot conceive of scenario number 1 so my money is on scenario number two.

c.d.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hello Trevor,

You are quite right that we cannot assume as fact that the police did in fact check out Kidney but I can only imagine three scenarios:

1. The police were complete idiots and it never occurred to them that he was a person of interest;

2. He had an alibi which they checked and confirmed;

3. He had no alibi and so they had Schwartz take a look at him.

There is no mention of scenario number 3 in any record and I simply cannot conceive of scenario number 1 so my money is on scenario number two.

c.d.

In my opinion at the risk of repeating myself much of what as to who saw what, and who did what, and how it was, and is now interpreted surrounding her murder is unsafe, and has been misinterpreted by those wanting ti link her murder to the others.

Can we really believe this killer (JTR) actually put himself out in a public street and allowed himself to be seen to physically interact with a female who would soon be found murdered, knowing he could have be seen and possibly identified, at a time not consistent with the other murders.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[FrankO]

See Michael Richard's Post #73, which is what was being discussed. The quote Michael put up is not Blackwell; it is from George Bagster Phillip's inquest deposition.

"Over both shoulders, especially the right, and under the collarbone and in front of the chest there was a bluish discoloration, which I have watched and have seen on two occasions since." etc etc

Thanks for clearing that up, Roger.

Erobitha's claim that it is a "fact" that Stride suffered no injuries other than the cut to her throat is obviously on very thin, weak, melting, and almost invisible ice. Dr. Phillips obviously suspected that the bruising on Stride's upper chest was sustained during the attack, and twice he returned to the morgue to study it's progression.

Nowhere does he state that it was a bruise of long standing, and his interest in it, coupled with the fact that it continued to darken post-mortem, all but proves these bruises were of very recently origin.

I agree with you that Bagster Phillips thought the pressure marks so recent that they were inflicted during the attack in which Stride's killer slit her throat. But I don't believe that the killer, as he suggested, seized Stride by the shoulders and then placed her on the ground, after which he cut her throat. If that were the case, it's odd that she ended up on her side and that there doesn't seem to have been any mud on her back.
.

Personally, I am of the opinion that Schwartz witnessed Stride's murder, but was confused about what he had seen, which is exceedingly common when someone sees a violent confrontation.

I don't really see how that could have happened, seeing that Stride was found inside the yard on a spot that was quite dark. If what you say is true, then Schwartz must have seen more than he said (not just the initial push & pull at the entrance of the yard, but also the actual attack that killed her further down the yard) or the whole thing (push & pull plus the throat cutting) took place around the spot where she was found.

All the best,
Frank

[erobitha]

In my opinion at the risk of repeating myself much of what as to who saw what, and who did what, and how it was, and is now interpreted surrounding her murder is unsafe, and has been misinterpreted by those wanting ti link her murder to the others.

Can we really believe this killer (JTR) actually put himself out in a public street and allowed himself to be seen to physically interact with a female who would soon be found murdered, knowing he could have be seen and possibly identified, at a time not consistent with the other murders.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Again I ask all those who believe Stride was not murdered by JTR the following:

Was it pure luck that Stride’s killer used the exact same technique of slitting the left carotid artery as all the other C5 victims, within an hour of another? The level of luck there is extraordinary.

[John Wheat]

Again I ask all those who believe Stride was not murdered by JTR the following:

Was it pure luck that Stride’s killer used the exact same technique of slitting the left carotid artery as all the other C5 victims, within an hour of another? The level of luck there is extraordinary.

I personally believe Stride was a Ripper victim but I'm just wondering how common slitting of the left carotid artery was at the time? And whether other techniques of slitting a throat were more common.

[Trevor Marriott]

Again I ask all those who believe Stride was not murdered by JTR the following:

Was it pure luck that Stride’s killer used the exact same technique of slitting the left carotid artery as all the other C5 victims, within an hour of another? The level of luck there is extraordinary.

How many different ways are there to cut a persons throat?

If a killer stands behind a victim, or grabs a victim from behind and cuts the throat, if he is right handed then the cut will be from left to right and vice versa.

All it may indicate is that the killer of Stride could have been right handed. it is not a conclusive fact to link Strides murder to the other murders

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Caz

Have you not considered a motive may have been domestic violence with Michael Kidney her b/f being responsible ?

In the heat of the moment it is not always to think about the consequences of ones actions.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Since they split up earlier that week, and since it would appear by all the physical description that Stride may well have been there to meet someone else...someone she thought perhaps she might end up staying with that night, and since she is only cut once to inflict mortal injury, jealousy may well be a motivator.

2 things..she is there either to clean that club after a large meeting, perhaps being referred by one of the Jews she regularly cleaned for, or she is there to meet someone. Secondly, people should stop using Schwartz's story to introduce someone else at that scene at that time. He is not part of any formal public hearing of the investigation into how she dies. Nor is a Pipeman, or a BSM. You only have what you have at that site...which is Liz Stride and about 30 jews hanging around after a meeting. Her killer came from those people, and since suicide wasnt considered, you have your suspect pool right there.

The pomposity of posters like Herlock leads one to mistakenly believe that a discarded statement is actually a pivgotal factoid in this case, and evidence that is absent in any way, shape or form indicates why a Ripper is the most likely suspect. He posts criticisms of other theoretical extrapolation of known accepted facts while using ones we already know are not valid. Its mind boggling logic, but its shared by some other posters too.

The facts are that Berner street was empty and deserted from 12:35 until 12:55 by all the witnesses that had access to see it during that time, only the anarchists inside the club, or in the passageway were there, and that Liz Stride is cut by someone whose sole intention was to cut her throat.

The suggestions that anything else is the actually the case are provably false. If people would focus on what actually IS vs what they believe, then we might progress. If they want to believe in evidence that isnt believable, thata choice, but hardly a platform to legitimately counter any proposed scenarios.


ps...thanks rj for pointing out the obvious when someone make a fuss about a post I made. bruises......

[DJA]

Yes, and you are forgetting the main cause of deaths by the use of as knife was throat cutting in Victorian times

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Reckon it would have been by stabbing.

Where do you get your stats from?

[c.d.]

Secondly, people should stop using Schwartz's story to introduce someone else at that scene at that time. He is not part of any formal public hearing of the investigation into how she dies. Nor is a Pipeman, or a BSM.

Hello Michael,

Looks like you forgot to include Fanny Mortimer in your list.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

Secondly, people should stop using Schwartz's story to introduce someone else at that scene at that time. He is not part of any formal public hearing of the investigation into how she dies. Nor is a Pipeman, or a BSM.

Hello Michael,

Looks like you forgot to include Fanny Mortimer in your list.

c.d.

Using that idea to discount Fanny isnt viable cd....in effect Fanny saw nothing on that at street in front of the gates between 12:35 and 12:55, during which time a murderer cuts Liz Strides throat in the passageway unseen from the view she had. Seeing no-one and no activity is already on the books with Wess, Lave and Eagle. They wouldnt need another "nothing" witness. However, Israel Schwartz claims to see someone no-one else sees alive after 12:35, being assaulted on that same empty and deserted street by one other man, with another watching...all around 12:45. The earliest cut time is from 12:30...as per Phillips estimate (an hour before he arrived at 1:30)...to 12:46,(20 minutes to 1/2 hour before he arrived at 1:16) as per Blackwells. It is highly likely she is cut between those times.

There are 3 people that could see what happened on that street from 12:35 until 12:55, and none of them saw anyone or anything. Ergo...the person who killed her was someone out of sight by the street view witnesses, and someone with access to Liz in the passageway. That can only be attendees still at the club.

[Michael W Richards]

Before someone points out that I believe the witnesses that state Louis was there at 12:40-12:45 with other men standing around the fallen Liz, we have ONLY Louis's word for when he arrived. For all I know he was there unloading in the yard before 12:30. No-one sees him arrive....yes, Fanny could have missed him, and the young couple, but thats not the only time he could have arrived. If he arrived at a time we might find acceptable evidence for, its after 1am and at 1:05 we have a PC having been escorted by Eagle and Issa K to to the passageway. So, it cannot be that he arrived just after 1am, because we have very good proof that Eagle is returning to that passageway at that same time. Louis cannot "discover" someone after someone was already sent out for help. Unless...you figure it out. I only know what ISnt here, never claimed to know for sure what IS here...just have some good evidence to formulate what IS is.

[caz]

Hi Caz

Have you not considered a motive may have been domestic violence with Michael Kidney her b/f being responsible ?

In the heat of the moment it is not always to think about the consequences of ones actions.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I have indeed considered this, Trev, but I don't see any compelling evidence against Kidney. Nor did the police, and I do very occasionally trust their judgement.

In the heat of what moment? Were they having a shouting match? A one-off killer, suddenly losing his temper with Stride and not thinking about the consequences, nevertheless manages to inflict a single fatal wound like a pro, with cool, quiet efficiency, then slips away into the night, confident he has silenced her for good? It just doesn't seem all that likely to me, but then I've never been in that position myself.

Love,

Caz
X