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  • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
    There is nothing more official than the account of a policeman under oath.

    Smith: At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of "Police."
    I agree, but even a policeman can word things ambiguously.

    Caz: At 9 o'clock yesterday morning I went to Stowford Rise as per usual.

    At 9.15 I arrived at Waitrose. [This is because it takes me about 15 minutes to walk there from home.] I saw several customers ahead of me and the cheeky security guard, who is a Spurs fan and always rips the piss out of me for wearing a Chelsea face covering.

    PC Smith didn't hear any cries of "Police", because he was presumably not yet in earshot when the alarm was raised. When he got to the club there were already two other constables there.
    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


    Comment


    • Originally posted by erobitha View Post

      Also if Schwartz saw what he thought he saw, what made him believe it was late on the Saturday night? Where was he travelling from? Did Jews often work on Saturdays then? Anyone see the original police report that shows clearly he reported this event a few hours after the murder?

      As I say, I do not see him appear anywhere until the 19th October. By Swanson.
      The original police report no longer exists.
      Presumably you're familiar with the Star report, Oct 1...?

      INFORMATION WHICH MAY BE IMPORTANT was given to the Leman-street police late yesterday afternoon by an Hungarian concerning this murder. This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line. He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane. The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police. It is, in fact, to the effect that he SAW THE WHOLE THING.

      It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb A SECOND MAN CAME OUT of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

      He described THE MAN WITH THE WOMAN as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society. The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.


      And the follow up mention the following day...

      In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.
      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

      Comment


      • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
        Schwartz may have been having a lark, including just pretending to recognise the woman at the mortuary.
        Yeah, must have been a real lark, putting himself that close to the crime scene at 12.45, then claiming to have been a right old cowardy custard, taking off in a blue funk and leaving this same poor woman in the deadly clutches of not one, but seemingly two Jewish thugs in cahoots.

        "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


        Comment


        • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

          Right. How open was it? All we can go on is what Sarah (Mrs D) said:

          The door had been, and still was, half open, and through the aperture the light from the gas jets in the kitchen was streaming out into the yard.

          She appears to have been cooking up a storm at one in the morning...
          I'm not sure she was cooking anything. I assume she was referring to the gas jets that provided the lighting in the kitchen, where she had been making beverages for people.

          If that was the door to the outside lavatories, there must have been more comings and goings than appear on the record.

          At least in Hanbury Street, we only know of one resident taken short around the time Chapman's body was discovered.

          Whether Stride's killer was the ripper or not, he must have come pretty close to an inconvenient encounter with anyone using the conveniences.

          "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


          Comment


          • Originally posted by caz View Post

            I agree, but even a policeman can word things ambiguously.

            Caz: At 9 o'clock yesterday morning I went to Stowford Rise as per usual.

            At 9.15 I arrived at Waitrose. [This is because it takes me about 15 minutes to walk there from home.] I saw several customers ahead of me and the cheeky security guard, who is a Spurs fan and always rips the piss out of me for wearing a Chelsea face covering.
            I take "At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round", as meaning "At 1 o'clock I left the top of my beat at Gower's Walk, and went in the direction of Berner-street".

            PC Smith didn't hear any cries of "Police", because he was presumably not yet in earshot when the alarm was raised.
            That's my interpretation

            When he got to the club there were already two other constables there.
            At 1 o'clock the two constables went to Berner-street when informed of the murder
            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

            Comment


            • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

              The original police report no longer exists.
              Presumably you're familiar with the Star report, Oct 1...?

              INFORMATION WHICH MAY BE IMPORTANT was given to the Leman-street police late yesterday afternoon by an Hungarian concerning this murder. This foreigner was well dressed, and had the appearance of being in the theatrical line. He could not speak a word of English, but came to the police-station accompanied by a friend, who acted as an interpreter. He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them. A Star man, however, got wind of his call, and ran him to earth in Backchurch-lane. The reporter's Hungarian was quite as imperfect as the foreigner's English, but an interpreter was at hand, and the man's story was retold just as he had given it to the police. It is, in fact, to the effect that he SAW THE WHOLE THING.

              It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb A SECOND MAN CAME OUT of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

              He described THE MAN WITH THE WOMAN as about 30 years of age, rather stoutly built, and wearing a brown moustache. He was dressed respectably in dark clothes and felt hat. The man who came at him with a knife he also describes, but not in detail. He says he was taller than the other, but not so stout, and that his moustaches were red. Both men seem to belong to the same grade of society. The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes. This prisoner has not been charged, but is held for inquiries to be made. The truth of the man's statement is not wholly accepted.


              And the follow up mention the following day...

              In the matter of the Hungarian who said he saw a struggle between a man and a woman in the passage where the Stride body was afterwards found, the Leman-street police have reason to doubt the truth of the story. They arrested one man on the description thus obtained, and a second on that furnished from another source, but they are not likely to act further on the same information without additional facts.
              Maybe my eyesight is failing me. I do not see the name of Israel Schwartz anywhere here. We have a report in one paper by one journalist claiming to describe what a witness apparently saw. By the 19th October we have a name and Swanson endorsing it. No police report. No physical appearance at the inquest.

              I imagine journalists placing fake news in papers in order to get the 'scoop' never happened back then. Still, he became quite a convenient witness that never was from the police perspective.

              Did men not partake in moving lodgings back then?
              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

              Comment


              • Originally posted by caz View Post

                Yeah, must have been a real lark, putting himself that close to the crime scene at 12.45, then claiming to have been a right old cowardy custard, taking off in a blue funk and leaving this same poor woman in the deadly clutches of not one, but seemingly two Jewish thugs in cahoots.
                You're quoting me out of context.
                I go on to say "that explanation would seem to not cut the mustard".
                I do not suppose Schwartz was having a lark, but some have proposed it.
                Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                Comment


                • Who among us hasn't had a lark at one time or another by going to a mortuary and pretending to identify a dead body?

                  c.d.

                  Comment


                  • PC Smith: "At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of 'Police'. When I got there I saw Constables 12 H. R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased..."

                    I take it you agree with me that there is nothing to see here?

                    "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                      You're quoting me out of context.
                      I go on to say "that explanation would seem to not cut the mustard".
                      I do not suppose Schwartz was having a lark, but some have proposed it.
                      I only meant to add my own objections to the idea that he was 'having a lark'. I didn't accuse you of subscribing to it.
                      "Comedy is simply a funny way of being serious." Peter Ustinov


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by caz View Post

                        I'm not sure she was cooking anything. I assume she was referring to the gas jets that provided the lighting in the kitchen, where she had been making beverages for people.
                        That makes sense. So the lighting seems to have been for the benefit of both people in the kitchen, and people in the yard, for whatever reason they are there (presumably with one exception).

                        If that was the door to the outside lavatories, there must have been more comings and goings than appear on the record.

                        At least in Hanbury Street, we only know of one resident taken short around the time Chapman's body was discovered.
                        So what do you suppose are the chances of no one being in the yard (bar murderer and victim), for 20 minutes?
                        Yet we still need to get murderer and victim into the yard, and murderer out, in that 20 minutes, unseen by anyone.
                        That would seem to preclude the man with the parcel wrapped in newspaper, unless he enters with Stride before Fanny goes outside. But then where does he go immediately after the murder, unnoticed?

                        Whether Stride's killer was the ripper or not, he must have come pretty close to an inconvenient encounter with anyone using the conveniences.
                        Maybe he hid in one of the loos when Diemschitz went inside?

                        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by caz View Post
                          PC Smith: "At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round. I saw a crowd of people outside the gates of No. 40. I did not hear any cries of 'Police'. When I got there I saw Constables 12 H. R and 252 H. I then saw the deceased..."

                          I take it you agree with me that there is nothing to see here?
                          Well I can't see a man on a pony-drawn cart, because he arrived about 15 minutes prior. Is that what you mean?
                          Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by caz View Post

                            I only meant to add my own objections to the idea that he was 'having a lark'. I didn't accuse you of subscribing to it.
                            Sorry, I misunderstood. It's around Mitre Square time, where I live.
                            Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                              Maybe my eyesight is failing me. I do not see the name of Israel Schwartz anywhere here. We have a report in one paper by one journalist claiming to describe what a witness apparently saw. By the 19th October we have a name and Swanson endorsing it. No police report. No physical appearance at the inquest.

                              I imagine journalists placing fake news in papers in order to get the 'scoop' never happened back then. Still, he became quite a convenient witness that never was from the police perspective.
                              I too, have wondered about the true identity of 'The Hungarian'.

                              I'm not alone ...

                              Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post

                              Did Israel Schwartz actually exist?
                              Did men not partake in moving lodgings back then?
                              Good question
                              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                              Comment


                              • Most rooms came furnished back then, if you move house you're typically carrying your clothes that's about it.

                                Are we questioning where Swanson got this info from?
                                "12.45 a.m. 30th. Israel Schwartz of 22 Helen (Ellen) street, Backchurch Lane, stated that at that hour."..etc.
                                Last edited by Wickerman; 05-07-2021, 05:26 PM.
                                Regards, Jon S.

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