Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The Absence Of Evidence

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    How long could this search have taken?


    He wasn’t ducking up side-streets and searching alleys. He turned into Commercial Road and ran toward Grove Street shouting ‘Police.’ So we don’t need to add on any ‘search’ time.
    Perhaps we do need to add some time.

    Lamb: About 1 o'clock, as near as I can tell, on Sunday morning I was in the Commercial-road, between Christian-street and Batty-street. Two men came running towards me. I went towards them and heard them say, "Come on! There has been another murder."

    Running from the club (even jogging) to the location given by Lamb, would take no more than a minute - so two minutes round trip.

    This is Eagle quoted from the Illustrated Police News, Oct 6:

    I struck a light and saw her covered in blood. I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first; but when we got to the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, I found two constables and I told them there was a woman murdered in Berner-street.

    "We could not find one at first", could represent substantial additional time, relative to 120 seconds. It is quite conceivable that Eagle and companion got to the top of Berner street, and turned left, and went in the direction of Aldgate, and not right, in the direction of Batty, Christian, & Grove streets.

    Eagle: One of them turned his light on down the yard. There were lots of people present in the yard at the time we returned. One of the constables said to his companion, "Go for a doctor," and turning to me he said, "Go to the police-station for the inspector."

    So when did Eagle inform Leman Street station, of the crime?

    Irish Times, Oct 1:

    The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock, and Dr. Phillips, of 2 Spital square, the divisional police surgeon, was immediately communicated with.

    Now if "Another man went for them at the same time" (Eagle) is a reference to Kozebrodski, we have to remember that IK had already been out searching with LD.

    From the point Diemschitz spots the clock on his way home - supposedly at 1am on the dot - all of the above and more has to occur by 1:10. That's a very tight squeeze.
    Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

    Comment


    • “We could not find one at first,” might simply have meant that they couldn’t find one in Berner Street itself.

      Considering the short distances involved I can’t really see an issue. If Eagle, Diemschutz and Koz all left on their hunt for a policeman at around 1.02ish it all ties in allowing a minute or two leeway here and there.
      Regards

      Herlock



      Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

        “We could not find one at first,” might simply have meant that they couldn’t find one in Berner Street itself.
        Somehow, I don't think he was referring to Berner street.

        Considering the short distances involved I can’t really see an issue.
        The distances are only short if you assume no 'wrong turns' were taken.

        If Eagle, Diemschutz and Koz all left on their hunt for a policeman at around 1.02ish it all ties in allowing a minute or two leeway here and there.
        Kozebrodski: I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.

        Apparently the searches were sequential, not concurrent.
        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

        Comment


        • Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
          White Noise, one of the favourite albums from my youth! Still have my vinyl copy.
          The off-key female vocalist sounds like Toyah Willcox.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

            Somehow, I don't think he was referring to Berner street.



            The distances are only short if you assume no 'wrong turns' were taken.



            Kozebrodski: I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.

            Apparently the searches were sequential, not concurrent.
            Maybe Eagle did turn left into Commercial Road first before turning back? If this was the case Koz might have met up with him at the junction of Berner and Commercial after returning with Diemschutz and Spooner?
            Regards

            Herlock



            Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

              Maybe Eagle did turn left into Commercial Road first before turning back? If this was the case Koz might have met up with him at the junction of Berner and Commercial after returning with Diemschutz and Spooner?
              I can see that as being a possibility. Whatever the case, it should be kept in mind that several Oct 1 papers make reference to the search for police dragging on, to the point that the police were apparently criticised for how long it took to find any of them. The Echo:

              Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.

              The question marks indicate unreadable text in the original, but the meaning is clear; the search for police was far from fast and efficient.
              Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

                Maybe Eagle did turn left into Commercial Road first before turning back? If this was the case Koz might have met up with him at the junction of Berner and Commercial after returning with Diemschutz and Spooner?
                I think that’s a very good suggestion, Mike.

                Let’s see how that would work out – theoretically, of course.

                To keep things simple, let’s focus on Kozebrodski, joining Eagle (as he was returning from his westward trip) at the junction of Berner Street & Commercial Street, just as you suggest.

                From the yard to Grove Street through Fairlough Street and back was 290 meters.
                From the yard north to Commercial Street and then the corner of Christian Street and back was 400 meters.
                Together that would be 690 meters, but let’s just say it was 700 meters.

                If Kozebrodski, around 18 years old at the time, ran at a speed of 14.4 km/hr or 4 m/s, he would have covered the combined distance of 700 meters in 175 seconds, but let’s add 15 seconds for some delay before turning back with Diemshutz from Grove Street, when he returned to the yard for the first time and when he arrived at the top of Berner Street to wait a bit for Eagle. We would end up at 190 seconds or 3 minutes and 10 seconds.

                If Kozebrodski, together with Diemshutz, ran out of the yard at, say, 1:02:00, then he would have returned to the yard with Eagle, Lamb & PC 426 H at 1:05:10.
                Now, let’s see where this scenario would have brought Eagle, turning left when he reached the top of Berner Street.

                If Eagle ran out of the yard 15 after Kozebrodski & Diemshutz did, then he would have been running for some 60 seconds the moment Kozebrodski passed the yard & continued his search in the direction of Commercial Street. Running at a speed of 4 m/s, he would have covered a distance of 240 meters in that time. So, if he’d turned left on reaching Commercial Street, then he covered 240 – 115 = 135 meters along Commercial Street.

                If he was to arrive back at the junction of Berner & Commercial Street when Kozebrodski arrived there too, coming from the south, Eagle would have gone 70-75 meters left along Commercial Street, which would have taken him just passed Backchurch Lane. Without seeing Smith, who was then possibly going round one of the small side streets on the west side of Backchurch Lane at that point.

                As far as I can see this all pretty well with the evidence we have, if we accept that Kozebrodski was off on his timing and in reality was called to the yard by Diemshutz just after one o’clock:
                Eagle left in search of a PC very shortly after Diemshutz (“I heard Diemschitz calling for the police”), he “could not find one at first” (on going left at the top of Berner Street) and Kozebrodski later joining Eagle in Commercial Street and together finding Lamb.

                All the best,
                Frank

                "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                Comment


                • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post

                  I can see that as being a possibility. Whatever the case, it should be kept in mind that several Oct 1 papers make reference to the search for police dragging on, to the point that the police were apparently criticised for how long it took to find any of them. The Echo:

                  Complaint is also made [?] [?] [?] there was experienced in obtaining a policeman, and it is alleged that from the time the body was discovered fifteen minutes had elapsed before a constable could be [?] from Commercial-road. This charge against the police, however, requires confirmation.

                  The question marks indicate unreadable text in the original, but the meaning is clear; the search for police was far from fast and efficient.
                  The complaint in The Echo perhaps smacks of a Press being more than willing to do a bit of ‘police bashing’ as 15 minutes is an obvious exaggeration. I wonder what their source was for this 15 minutes as it was before Lamb and Diemschutz testimony appeared in the papers where they could have seen that there was no significant time lapse before a Constable was found?
                  Regards

                  Herlock



                  Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by FrankO View Post

                    I think that’s a very good suggestion, Mike.

                    Let’s see how that would work out – theoretically, of course.

                    To keep things simple, let’s focus on Kozebrodski, joining Eagle (as he was returning from his westward trip) at the junction of Berner Street & Commercial Street, just as you suggest.

                    From the yard to Grove Street through Fairlough Street and back was 290 meters.
                    From the yard north to Commercial Street and then the corner of Christian Street and back was 400 meters.
                    Together that would be 690 meters, but let’s just say it was 700 meters.

                    If Kozebrodski, around 18 years old at the time, ran at a speed of 14.4 km/hr or 4 m/s, he would have covered the combined distance of 700 meters in 175 seconds, but let’s add 15 seconds for some delay before turning back with Diemshutz from Grove Street, when he returned to the yard for the first time and when he arrived at the top of Berner Street to wait a bit for Eagle. We would end up at 190 seconds or 3 minutes and 10 seconds.

                    If Kozebrodski, together with Diemshutz, ran out of the yard at, say, 1:02:00, then he would have returned to the yard with Eagle, Lamb & PC 426 H at 1:05:10.
                    Now, let’s see where this scenario would have brought Eagle, turning left when he reached the top of Berner Street.

                    If Eagle ran out of the yard 15 after Kozebrodski & Diemshutz did, then he would have been running for some 60 seconds the moment Kozebrodski passed the yard & continued his search in the direction of Commercial Street. Running at a speed of 4 m/s, he would have covered a distance of 240 meters in that time. So, if he’d turned left on reaching Commercial Street, then he covered 240 – 115 = 135 meters along Commercial Street.

                    If he was to arrive back at the junction of Berner & Commercial Street when Kozebrodski arrived there too, coming from the south, Eagle would have gone 70-75 meters left along Commercial Street, which would have taken him just passed Backchurch Lane. Without seeing Smith, who was then possibly going round one of the small side streets on the west side of Backchurch Lane at that point.

                    As far as I can see this all pretty well with the evidence we have, if we accept that Kozebrodski was off on his timing and in reality was called to the yard by Diemshutz just after one o’clock:
                    Eagle left in search of a PC very shortly after Diemshutz (“I heard Diemschitz calling for the police”), he “could not find one at first” (on going left at the top of Berner Street) and Kozebrodski later joining Eagle in Commercial Street and together finding Lamb.

                    All the best,
                    Frank
                    I can’t see any objections from what we know Frank. It doesn’t make it a fact of course but it seems plausible. Michael will still insist that Hoschberg was correct when he said that he got to the yard at 12.45 though. It would be good if you could post an updated timeline Frank? One that ignores witnesses who were very obviously mistaken of course. It’s way past time that this silliness about earlier discovery times was put to bed as the fantasy that it very obviously is.
                    Regards

                    Herlock



                    Chairman of the National Society For The Prevention Of Cruelty To The Old Established Theories.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by FrankO View Post

                      I think that’s a very good suggestion, Mike.

                      Let’s see how that would work out – theoretically, of course.

                      To keep things simple, let’s focus on Kozebrodski, joining Eagle (as he was returning from his westward trip) at the junction of Berner Street & Commercial Street, just as you suggest.

                      From the yard to Grove Street through Fairlough Street and back was 290 meters.
                      From the yard north to Commercial Street and then the corner of Christian Street and back was 400 meters.
                      Together that would be 690 meters, but let’s just say it was 700 meters.

                      If Kozebrodski, around 18 years old at the time, ran at a speed of 14.4 km/hr or 4 m/s, he would have covered the combined distance of 700 meters in 175 seconds, but let’s add 15 seconds for some delay before turning back with Diemshutz from Grove Street, when he returned to the yard for the first time and when he arrived at the top of Berner Street to wait a bit for Eagle. We would end up at 190 seconds or 3 minutes and 10 seconds.

                      If Kozebrodski, together with Diemshutz, ran out of the yard at, say, 1:02:00, then he would have returned to the yard with Eagle, Lamb & PC 426 H at 1:05:10.
                      Now, let’s see where this scenario would have brought Eagle, turning left when he reached the top of Berner Street.

                      If Eagle ran out of the yard 15 after Kozebrodski & Diemshutz did, then he would have been running for some 60 seconds the moment Kozebrodski passed the yard & continued his search in the direction of Commercial Street. Running at a speed of 4 m/s, he would have covered a distance of 240 meters in that time. So, if he’d turned left on reaching Commercial Street, then he covered 240 – 115 = 135 meters along Commercial Street.

                      If he was to arrive back at the junction of Berner & Commercial Street when Kozebrodski arrived there too, coming from the south, Eagle would have gone 70-75 meters left along Commercial Street, which would have taken him just passed Backchurch Lane. Without seeing Smith, who was then possibly going round one of the small side streets on the west side of Backchurch Lane at that point.

                      As far as I can see this all pretty well with the evidence we have, if we accept that Kozebrodski was off on his timing and in reality was called to the yard by Diemshutz just after one o’clock:
                      Eagle left in search of a PC very shortly after Diemshutz (“I heard Diemschitz calling for the police”), he “could not find one at first” (on going left at the top of Berner Street) and Kozebrodski later joining Eagle in Commercial Street and together finding Lamb.

                      All the best,
                      Frank
                      Great work with the distances and timings Frank.

                      Did Eagle go out alone?

                      Eagle: I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first; but when we got to the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, I found two constables...

                      Kozebrodski: I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.

                      Arbeter Fraint is a little more ambiguous:

                      In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman;

                      Regardless of who went were and when, how long did it take to find police?

                      ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers.

                      And then...

                      One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

                      And according to the Irish Times...

                      The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock...

                      This does not square with Diemschitz entering Berner street at 1:00:xx
                      Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                      Comment


                      • Frank: If Kozebrodski, together with Diemshutz, ran out of the yard at, say, 1:02:00, then he would have returned to the yard with Eagle, Lamb & PC 426 H at 1:05:10.

                        If we use Arbeter Fraint's take as a model, together with Diemschitz' "precisely one o'clock" claim, then the following must all occur between 1:00:xx and 1:02:00, to be compatible with Frank's model.

                        At about [that is, precisely] one o’clock the steward of the club, Comrade Louis Dimshits, came with his cart from the market. He was the first to notice the dead body. His horse became frightened as he drove into the gate and shied to the right, and this caused Dimshits to bend down to see the reason for this. He noticed a black object on the ground. He touched it with his whip and felt that it was a body. He immediately struck a match, but that was insufficient and he wasn’t able to get a [good] flame, he was nevertheless able by the light of the first match to see that the object was a woman. From excitement he jumped off the cart, ran through the back door into the club and raised an alarm. Immediately Comrade Gilyarovsky ran into the printing shop and editor’s office that are located in the same building as the club, but separated in the back by the yard.
                        There was no one in the printing shop. Comrades Krants and Yaffa were busy in the editor’s office.
                        “Don’t you know that a murdered woman is lying in the yard?” Gilyarovsky breathlessly called out. At first the two comrades did not want to believe him. “What, don’t you believe me?” Gilyarovsky quickly asked: “I saw blood.” Yaffa and Krants immediately ran out and went over to the gate. The gate was open and it was very dark near the gate. A black object was barely discernable near the brick building. Once they got very close, they could notice that it was the shape of a woman that was lying with its face to the wall, with its head toward the yard and with its feet pointing to the gate. Comrades Morris Eygel, Fridenthal and Gilyarovsky were standing around the body. Eygel struck a match and shouted to the figure lying there: “Get up!” “Why are you waking her?” asked Yaffa, who noticed that the woman was lying in a liquid. “Don’t you see that the woman is dead?”
                        In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman;


                        We also need this to be false.

                        Smith: At 1 o'clock I went to Berner-street in my ordinary round.

                        Diemschitz' time claim seems dubious.
                        Andrew's the man, that is not blamed for nothing

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

                          Ok. Until then, I guess we're in agreement that a cut throat could not be described as a "military killing technique" in 1888.
                          Since you cannot find any military units being trained in that technique, I mean.
                          Personally, I'd think the SOE might have been the place to look if you want to find a point of origin for such things being taught, but you state for a fact that it's been taught in the military since Roman times. Kinda strange that there's no evidence of it, then. I suppose all the units being taught this over the course of two millennia were very, very secretive
                          For what it is worth... A link to a seventeenth-century manual on the English military "discipline." As a librarian, I have seen and handled a soldier's manual from the First World War.
                          They have been around.

                          https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Boo...hoCaWAQAvD_BwE
                          Pat D. https://forum.casebook.org/core/imag...rt/reading.gif
                          ---------------
                          Von Konigswald: Jack the Ripper plays shuffleboard. -- Happy Birthday, Wanda June by Kurt Vonnegut, c.1970.
                          ---------------

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Pcdunn View Post

                            For what it is worth... A link to a seventeenth-century manual on the English military "discipline." As a librarian, I have seen and handled a soldier's manual from the First World War.
                            They have been around.
                            Yes, as I said they've been around for centuries.

                            Most importantly from Orange-nassau and the Dutch States Army which sparked the Military Revolution of the 17th century, which transformed armies from, extremely broadly speaking, medieval warrior groups into modern organizations with management, middle management, discipline and bureaucracy - and subsequently exercised influence on surrounding society to such a degree that it's difficult to overstate its importance.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

                              Yes, as I said they've been around for centuries.

                              Most importantly from Orange-nassau and the Dutch States Army which sparked the Military Revolution of the 17th century, which transformed armies from, extremely broadly speaking, medieval warrior groups into modern organizations with management, middle management, discipline and bureaucracy - and subsequently exercised influence on surrounding society to such a degree that it's difficult to overstate its importance.
                              And yet......thousands of soldiers ended up dead in the battlefield with their throat cuts. It's a real puzzle. If it wasn't in the manual then how could it have happened? It seems impossible, but yet it happened.
                              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by NotBlamedForNothing View Post
                                Great work with the distances and timings Frank.
                                Thanks, Andrew.

                                Did Eagle go out alone?

                                Eagle: I could not look at her long, so I ran for the police. Another man went for them at the same time. We could not find one at first; but when we got to the corner of Grove-street, Commercial-road, I found two constables...

                                Kozebrodski: I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers.
                                The way I interpret the evidence is that he indeed went out alone and was later joined by Kozebrodski. Maybe he used ‘we’ here as in ‘all of us who went looking for a PC’, after Kozebrodski had told Eagle that he & Diemshutz hadn’t found a PC. But seeing that he used ‘we’ 2 times and finished with ‘I’ all in one sentence, I wonder if he actually used the word ‘we’. Makes no sense and, therefore, may very well have been an error by the journalist.

                                Arbeter Fraint is a little more ambiguous:

                                In the meantime, there was quite a to-do going on inside the club, and everyone ran out into the yard. Dimshits, Eygel and Gilyarovsky ran to look for a policeman;

                                Regardless of who went were and when, how long did it take to find police?

                                ten minutes later they had found a pair of peace-keepers.

                                And then...

                                One of the policemen ran for a doctor, and Morris Eygel ran to the police station on Leman Street to report the murder.

                                And according to the Irish Times...

                                The information of the crime reached Leman street Police Station at ten minutes past 1 o'clock...

                                This does not square with Diemschitz entering Berner street at 1:00:xx
                                As you might know by now, Andrew, I’m one who likes to stick to the official statements and am cautious about the more controversial (versions of these) statements/accounts - although they may be very interesting, of course. This is because I think that, generally, people were and are more inclined to tell the truth to police and coroners alike then to the newspapers.

                                Looking at it that way, I don’t think there’s a problem with Diemshutz entering Berner Street when he saw the clock was indicating one o’clock. He would have turned into the yard about half a minute later. But even if we’d say it took him a minute, he’d still have arrived at around 1:01, then another half a minute to eventually find out the object in the yard was a woman and another half a minute to go inside, alert others, go outside with Kozebrodski and a candle to see all the blood and then run out of the yard in search of a PC by the time the clock had just or was about to strike 1:02 am.

                                And then, on to Eagle, who was sent for the Leman Street Police Station. Going there by way of Commercial Street, the distance would have been some 610 meters. Going there by Fairclough Street, Backchurch Lane and Hooper Street, it would have been some 515 meters. Running there at a speed of 2 m/s (7.2 km/hr, a slow jogging speed), it would have taken Eagle 5 minutes and 5 seconds to cover 610 meters. If he was sent there at around 1:05 by Lamb, he would have arrived there a little after 1:10. If he took the shorter route, he would have arrived there just before 1:10. If he ran quicker than 7.2 km/hr, ect. …

                                Whatever the case, he could very well have arrived at the station shortly before or around 1:10 am.

                                "You can rob me, you can starve me and you can beat me and you can kill me. Just don't bore me."
                                Clint Eastwood as Gunny in "Heartbreak Ridge"

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X