How many victims?

[Trevor Marriott]

Surgical gloves were about hygiene not slippery organs.

"Typically, an ideal glove for surgeons and scrub personnel is strong, easy to don, resistant to puncture, comfortable, textured with a tacky surface to enhance gripping,"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

"Typically, an ideal glove for surgeons and scrub personnel is strong, easy to don, resistant to puncture, comfortable, textured with a tacky surface to enhance gripping,"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

That describes a modern surgical glove.
There were no surgical gloves in London circa 1888. NONE,ZILCH,ZERO!
Cease trying to worm your way out of your mistakes and usual BS.

[Trevor Marriott]

That describes a modern surgical glove.
There were no surgical gloves in London circa 1888. NONE,ZILCH,ZERO!
Cease trying to worm your way out of your mistakes and usual BS.

I am not trying to work my way out of anyhting I stated in the original post that the killer would not have had access to use surgical gloves which modern surgeons have access to and use as an aid to grip organs they are working with. If the killer had have been attempting to remove organs being able to grip them sufficently to be able to remoe them with anatomical knowledge would have made the job much harder and would have been just one of several obstacles he would have faced.

If you wanna play smart arse go try with someone else you have picked the wrong person with me

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

You for one need to take the blinkers off and start to look at these murders and all that surrounds them in a new light becasue you have become blinded by the old accepted theories you post if full of whats if`s which you use to try to negate what are clear differneces in the killers MO with some of the victims, now to me that either points to more than one killer, or the same killer using one MO that being to simply kill and murder and mutilate, with the side issue of not removing organs and the organs of Eddowes and Chapam removed at the mortuary

I can say what I like, and I accept that what I say is not going to go down well with those who still try to prop up the old theories and use whatever means they can to not accept new ideas and new research which you clearly resort to time and time again with the excuse that the killer might have been disturbed but that doesnt wash does it for the reasons I have previouylsy stated.

Now this post has gone of track from the research Prof Hurren conducted into the illicit trade in bodies and body parts in the LVP from among other place mortuaries with the help of corrupt mortuary attendants which has a bearing on what happened to the organs of the only two victims out of possibly 9 victims, so much for the killer killing to acquire organs he cleary wasnt that successful

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

You keep going on about the 'old accepted theories' as if they have a shelf life and therefore must be dismissed or renewed like an overdue library book. Basically, and ironically, you are taking the Rubenhold approach of 'those ripperologist don't like their theories being challenged.' When it simply means that the proposer is just desperate to be seen as the clever one. The innovative thinker. This causes them (and you) to pursue theories that no one agrees with. And to state opinions as if they are facts whilst refusing to accept that people are capable of disagreeing with you for valid reasons.

. now to me that either points to more than one killer, or the same killer using one MO that being to simply kill and murder and mutilate, with the side issue of not removing organs and the organs of Eddowes and Chapam removed at the mortuary

And of course you completely, and very conveniently for your theory, ignore the possibility of another explanation. As I've said, we just can't know what went through the killers mind at any given time. Perhaps he wasn't thinking "ok I better consult my serial killer handbook so that I don't forget to do something?" Patterns occur of course but there are no hard and fast rules. Your theory assumes hard and fast rules though so that you can make your point.

Opinions are fine. We all have them. They are not facts though. I fail to see why you don't get that Trevor? No one would would complain if you didn't keep suggesting that posters are either stupid or biased if they disagree with you.

[Trevor Marriott]

You keep going on about the 'old accepted theories' as if they have a shelf life and therefore must be dismissed or renewed like an overdue library book. Basically, and ironically, you are taking the Rubenhold approach of 'those ripperologist don't like their theories being challenged.' When it simply means that the proposer is just desperate to be seen as the clever one. The innovative thinker. This causes them (and you) to pursue theories that no one agrees with. And to state opinions as if they are facts whilst refusing to accept that people are capable of disagreeing with you for valid reasons.



And of course you completely, and very conveniently for your theory, ignore the possibility of another explanation. As I've said, we just can't know what went through the killers mind at any given time. Perhaps he wasn't thinking "ok I better consult my serial killer handbook so that I don't forget to do something?" Patterns occur of course but there are no hard and fast rules. Your theory assumes hard and fast rules though so that you can make your point.

Opinions are fine. We all have them. They are not facts though. I fail to see why you don't get that Trevor? No one would would complain if you didn't keep suggesting that posters are either stupid or biased if they disagree with you.

Serial killer do not change there MO to this extent whereby out of 9-10 victims he only decide to remove organs from two leaving no sign with the others of any attempt to remove organs now to me those facts are astouding.

And the only two victims who were taken to two diffrent mortauaries whose bodies were left for mnay hours before the post mortems were carried out.

The only two victims that had their abdomen opened in such a way that easy access could be gained at the morturaries.

The same two victims who had their organs removed in two differnt ways-now all of that should start the warning bells sounding because I have to ask if it was the same killer he was a remarkably skilled person to remove the same organs from two different victims using two differnet methods of extraction

Now to me all of those facts put together cause me great cause for concern as to who did remove their organs and where?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

On that topic you have to also the degree of difficulty involved in a killer trying to locate vital organs in almost total darkness and then having located them being in a position to take hold of slippery organs without the assistance of surgical gloves to be able to gain a good grip and then remove them with some medical precision- It didnt happen !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ironically,when surgical gloves were introduced "some resistance to the use of surgical gloves was more rational. Touch, more than any other physical sense, guided surgeons through operations at that time. Surgeons had to know how different organs and tissues felt inside dark cavities, and they had to know the different textures of diseased and healthy tissue to know which parts to cut.

Rubber gloves, they feared, would numb their fingers and blunt that crucial guide. Detractors argued that any gains from the lower infection rates might be overwhelmed by the hack jobs that would result from touch-blind surgery. One group of doctors even hunted down three blind women and had them read pages of braille while wearing rubber gloves, all to “prove” that gloves obliterated tactile sensation."

[DJA]

I am not trying to work my way out of anyhting I stated in the original post that the killer would not have had access to use surgical gloves which modern surgeons have access to and use as an aid to grip organs they are working with. If the killer had have been attempting to remove organs being able to grip them sufficently to be able to remoe them with anatomical knowledge would have made the job much harder and would have been just one of several obstacles he would have faced.

If you wanna play smart arse go try with someone else you have picked the wrong person with me

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

And the only two victims who were taken to two diffrent mortauaries whose bodies were left for mnay hours before the post mortems were carried out.

The only two victims that had their abdomen opened in such a way that easy access could be gained at the morturaries.

The same two victims who had their organs removed in two differnt ways-now all of that should start the warning bells sounding because I have to ask if it was the same killer he was a remarkably skilled person to remove the same organs from two different victims using two differnet methods of extraction

Now to me all of those facts put together cause me great cause for concern as to who did remove their organs and where?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Henry Gawen Sutton,where he left the bodies.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Serial killer do not change there MO to this extent whereby out of 9-10 victims he only decide to remove organs from two leaving no sign with the others of any attempt to remove organs now to me those facts are astouding.

And the only two victims who were taken to two diffrent mortauaries whose bodies were left for mnay hours before the post mortems were carried out.

The only two victims that had their abdomen opened in such a way that easy access could be gained at the morturaries.

The same two victims who had their organs removed in two differnt ways-now all of that should start the warning bells sounding because I have to ask if it was the same killer he was a remarkably skilled person to remove the same organs from two different victims using two differnet methods of extraction

Now to me all of those facts put together cause me great cause for concern as to who did remove their organs and where?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And we can add in the case of Kelly - heart missing from the body + heart not found or listed as being in the room = heart taken away. Reid can safely be ignored as mistaken as can anyone newspaper reports that might have assumed that he was correct.

Your clutching at straws and missing them.

[Trevor Marriott]

And we can add in the case of Kelly - heart missing from the body + heart not found or listed as being in the room = heart taken away. Reid can safely be ignored as mistaken as can anyone newspaper reports that might have assumed that he was correct.

Your clutching at straws and missing them.

You forgot to mention no mention of missing heart by any police in their interviews or memoirs

more importantly no mention of missing heart by Bond in his report to Anderson did his memory fail him days after the event?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Varqm]

The injuries to Nichols and Mckenzie are mutilation injuries and not consistent witn any attempt to open up the abdomens and attempt to remove organs.

The suggestion that the killer was disturbed is a cop out excuse in my opininion and has been used to link Stride and Eddowes to the same killer with the suggestion that at the Stride murder he was disturbed and still wanted to find a victim that night. So if researchers are going to use that same excuse as the reason for no other attempt at organ removals on any other victims then why do we not see secondary attacks the same nights?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes it was an attempt otherwise why try to cut the abdomen,if he just wanted to kill. Spitalfields/Whitechapel was densely poulated and not at all empty in the early mornings,plus cops walked around in beats.It was not surprising he was disturbed.Look at the Frances Coles case,the policeman heard footsteps running away.

Indeed the Stride case was the only time JTR did the double because coincidentally Eddowes was being released from the Bishopsgate station as he was fleeing,around 1 AM..Eddowes took around 6-9 minutes to reach St Botolphs church and the distance from Berner St to Mitre square/ Houndstitch around 10-12 minutes.
He was probably fleeing to the Aldgate/Portsoken area to escape.

[Varqm]

You should read Prof Hurrens research in full on the topic of illicit organ and body parts acquisition then you may look at this in a differmet light and tyou may be less flippant because your observations as posted are never more far from the truth and reality.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I did months ago, but only steal when the abdomen was already open? There were many dead bodies in mortuaries through the years,to only have that as a criteria for stealing,that does not sit well with me.If they were thieves,steal.

[Sunny Delight]

As a newbie I still have an open mind as to how many victims this deranged murderer had. At the moment I am thinking he had seven altogether:

MarthaTabram
Polly Nichols
Annie Chapman
Liz Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Kelly
Frances Cole

I am undecided on Alice McKenzie so haven't included her. I don't really think there can be much argument over these victims.

[Sunny Delight]

Also am I missing something in regard Kelly's heart being missing or not? Surely it doesn't make one iota of difference. My God we have all seen the crime scene photos, that was the work of a very sick and very deranged mind. It also fits the pattern of escalation which this killer clearly demonstrated. Is the heart not missing supposed to prove this attack was not the Ripper? It is quite clear whoever carried the attack out had killed before.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It matters to a man with a theory SD. Trevor believes that these women weren’t killed by the same person and so to prove this he wants to show that some of the missing body parts were actually stolen in the mortuary and that the victims without missing body parts were not victims of the ripper. So Mary Kelly was killed by a completely different maniac operating in the same region.