How many victims?

[Herlock Sholmes]

If you are going to quote me get it right

i made reference to the killers mo and the fact that many believe all the victims were killed by the same hand

but yet again you misrepresent what has been posted in your effort to try to negate what had been posted to prop up the old accepted theory which clearly you are deeply immersed in.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

No more than you are immersed in your attempt to prop up your theory Trevor. And then there’s your constant and very wearying attempt to portray everyone that disagrees with you as being guilty of blindly defending the ‘old established theories.’ It’s an absolute cop out (excuse the pun) and you do it on every single topic that you discuss on here. It shows the weakness of your arguments that you feel the need to do it.

[Trevor Marriott]

Ah right ok. Sounds rather a strange theory. Even if the missing body parts had been stolen and not taken by the Ripper what does that prove? Surely the removal of the organs is not a deal breaker in regards M.O. It doesn't really prove anything.

It tends to show that the killers motive was not to remove organs more victims did not have organs removed tha this who did

the disturbed explanation is not a credible explanation having regards to what is suggested the killer then did after failing with stride

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

It matters to a man with a theory SD. Trevor believes that these women weren’t killed by the same person and so to prove this he wants to show that some of the missing body parts were actually stolen in the mortuary and that the victims without missing body parts were not victims of the ripper. So Mary Kelly was killed by a completely different maniac operating in the same region.

If you are going to quote me get it right

i made reference to the killers mo and the fact that many believe all the victims were killed by the same hand

but yet again you misrepresent what has been posted in your effort to try to negate what had been posted to prop up the old accepted theory which clearly you are deeply immersed in.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Sunny Delight]

It matters to a man with a theory SD. Trevor believes that these women weren’t killed by the same person and so to prove this he wants to show that some of the missing body parts were actually stolen in the mortuary and that the victims without missing body parts were not victims of the ripper. So Mary Kelly was killed by a completely different maniac operating in the same region.

Ah right ok. Sounds rather a strange theory. Even if the missing body parts had been stolen and not taken by the Ripper what does that prove? Surely the removal of the organs is not a deal breaker in regards M.O. It doesn't really prove anything.

[Herlock Sholmes]

It matters to a man with a theory SD. Trevor believes that these women weren’t killed by the same person and so to prove this he wants to show that some of the missing body parts were actually stolen in the mortuary and that the victims without missing body parts were not victims of the ripper. So Mary Kelly was killed by a completely different maniac operating in the same region.

[Sunny Delight]

Also am I missing something in regard Kelly's heart being missing or not? Surely it doesn't make one iota of difference. My God we have all seen the crime scene photos, that was the work of a very sick and very deranged mind. It also fits the pattern of escalation which this killer clearly demonstrated. Is the heart not missing supposed to prove this attack was not the Ripper? It is quite clear whoever carried the attack out had killed before.

[Sunny Delight]

As a newbie I still have an open mind as to how many victims this deranged murderer had. At the moment I am thinking he had seven altogether:

MarthaTabram
Polly Nichols
Annie Chapman
Liz Stride
Catherine Eddowes
Mary Kelly
Frances Cole

I am undecided on Alice McKenzie so haven't included her. I don't really think there can be much argument over these victims.

[Varqm]

You should read Prof Hurrens research in full on the topic of illicit organ and body parts acquisition then you may look at this in a differmet light and tyou may be less flippant because your observations as posted are never more far from the truth and reality.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I did months ago, but only steal when the abdomen was already open? There were many dead bodies in mortuaries through the years,to only have that as a criteria for stealing,that does not sit well with me.If they were thieves,steal.

[Varqm]

The injuries to Nichols and Mckenzie are mutilation injuries and not consistent witn any attempt to open up the abdomens and attempt to remove organs.

The suggestion that the killer was disturbed is a cop out excuse in my opininion and has been used to link Stride and Eddowes to the same killer with the suggestion that at the Stride murder he was disturbed and still wanted to find a victim that night. So if researchers are going to use that same excuse as the reason for no other attempt at organ removals on any other victims then why do we not see secondary attacks the same nights?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Yes it was an attempt otherwise why try to cut the abdomen,if he just wanted to kill. Spitalfields/Whitechapel was densely poulated and not at all empty in the early mornings,plus cops walked around in beats.It was not surprising he was disturbed.Look at the Frances Coles case,the policeman heard footsteps running away.

Indeed the Stride case was the only time JTR did the double because coincidentally Eddowes was being released from the Bishopsgate station as he was fleeing,around 1 AM..Eddowes took around 6-9 minutes to reach St Botolphs church and the distance from Berner St to Mitre square/ Houndstitch around 10-12 minutes.
He was probably fleeing to the Aldgate/Portsoken area to escape.

[Trevor Marriott]

And we can add in the case of Kelly - heart missing from the body + heart not found or listed as being in the room = heart taken away. Reid can safely be ignored as mistaken as can anyone newspaper reports that might have assumed that he was correct.

Your clutching at straws and missing them.

You forgot to mention no mention of missing heart by any police in their interviews or memoirs

more importantly no mention of missing heart by Bond in his report to Anderson did his memory fail him days after the event?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Herlock Sholmes]

Serial killer do not change there MO to this extent whereby out of 9-10 victims he only decide to remove organs from two leaving no sign with the others of any attempt to remove organs now to me those facts are astouding.

And the only two victims who were taken to two diffrent mortauaries whose bodies were left for mnay hours before the post mortems were carried out.

The only two victims that had their abdomen opened in such a way that easy access could be gained at the morturaries.

The same two victims who had their organs removed in two differnt ways-now all of that should start the warning bells sounding because I have to ask if it was the same killer he was a remarkably skilled person to remove the same organs from two different victims using two differnet methods of extraction

Now to me all of those facts put together cause me great cause for concern as to who did remove their organs and where?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

And we can add in the case of Kelly - heart missing from the body + heart not found or listed as being in the room = heart taken away. Reid can safely be ignored as mistaken as can anyone newspaper reports that might have assumed that he was correct.

Your clutching at straws and missing them.

[DJA]

And the only two victims who were taken to two diffrent mortauaries whose bodies were left for mnay hours before the post mortems were carried out.

The only two victims that had their abdomen opened in such a way that easy access could be gained at the morturaries.

The same two victims who had their organs removed in two differnt ways-now all of that should start the warning bells sounding because I have to ask if it was the same killer he was a remarkably skilled person to remove the same organs from two different victims using two differnet methods of extraction

Now to me all of those facts put together cause me great cause for concern as to who did remove their organs and where?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Henry Gawen Sutton,where he left the bodies.

[DJA]

I am not trying to work my way out of anyhting I stated in the original post that the killer would not have had access to use surgical gloves which modern surgeons have access to and use as an aid to grip organs they are working with. If the killer had have been attempting to remove organs being able to grip them sufficently to be able to remoe them with anatomical knowledge would have made the job much harder and would have been just one of several obstacles he would have faced.

If you wanna play smart arse go try with someone else you have picked the wrong person with me

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[DJA]

On that topic you have to also the degree of difficulty involved in a killer trying to locate vital organs in almost total darkness and then having located them being in a position to take hold of slippery organs without the assistance of surgical gloves to be able to gain a good grip and then remove them with some medical precision- It didnt happen !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ironically,when surgical gloves were introduced "some resistance to the use of surgical gloves was more rational. Touch, more than any other physical sense, guided surgeons through operations at that time. Surgeons had to know how different organs and tissues felt inside dark cavities, and they had to know the different textures of diseased and healthy tissue to know which parts to cut.

Rubber gloves, they feared, would numb their fingers and blunt that crucial guide. Detractors argued that any gains from the lower infection rates might be overwhelmed by the hack jobs that would result from touch-blind surgery. One group of doctors even hunted down three blind women and had them read pages of braille while wearing rubber gloves, all to “prove” that gloves obliterated tactile sensation."

[Trevor Marriott]

You keep going on about the 'old accepted theories' as if they have a shelf life and therefore must be dismissed or renewed like an overdue library book. Basically, and ironically, you are taking the Rubenhold approach of 'those ripperologist don't like their theories being challenged.' When it simply means that the proposer is just desperate to be seen as the clever one. The innovative thinker. This causes them (and you) to pursue theories that no one agrees with. And to state opinions as if they are facts whilst refusing to accept that people are capable of disagreeing with you for valid reasons.



And of course you completely, and very conveniently for your theory, ignore the possibility of another explanation. As I've said, we just can't know what went through the killers mind at any given time. Perhaps he wasn't thinking "ok I better consult my serial killer handbook so that I don't forget to do something?" Patterns occur of course but there are no hard and fast rules. Your theory assumes hard and fast rules though so that you can make your point.

Opinions are fine. We all have them. They are not facts though. I fail to see why you don't get that Trevor? No one would would complain if you didn't keep suggesting that posters are either stupid or biased if they disagree with you.

Serial killer do not change there MO to this extent whereby out of 9-10 victims he only decide to remove organs from two leaving no sign with the others of any attempt to remove organs now to me those facts are astouding.

And the only two victims who were taken to two diffrent mortauaries whose bodies were left for mnay hours before the post mortems were carried out.

The only two victims that had their abdomen opened in such a way that easy access could be gained at the morturaries.

The same two victims who had their organs removed in two differnt ways-now all of that should start the warning bells sounding because I have to ask if it was the same killer he was a remarkably skilled person to remove the same organs from two different victims using two differnet methods of extraction

Now to me all of those facts put together cause me great cause for concern as to who did remove their organs and where?

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk