Does The Killer Scope Out Locations Before He Kills?

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

For timings of the Berner Street murder, see Gavin Bromley's "Smith's Beat" in Ripperologist no. 70 (August 2006) and "Taking a Stride Down Berner Street" in Ripperologist no. 71 (September 2006).

Cheers for the directions Scott, I'll have a read. The timeline of Berner St is near impossible to pin down. Well, pinning it down would be one thing, agreement?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Continuing to use a statement that has zero secondhand corroboration and from someone whose statement is not involved in the Inquest in any shape or form despite being given prior to said Inquest....(unlike Mr Hutchinsons absence from that Inquest records), ...is beyond reason. There was no BSM, there was no Pipeman, and if anything makes sense its that Israel attended the meeting.. if there at all.

The Star, Oct 1:

The police have been told that a man, aged between 35 and 40 years of age, and of fair complexion, was seen to throw the woman murdered in Berner-street to the ground. Those who saw it thought that it was a man and his wife quarrelling, and no notice was taken of it.

Who was that man? When did this occur? Where did it occur? Who told the police about it? How did they know it was the to-be murdered woman?

Curiouser and curiouser!

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Remember that German I was speaking about in connection to the lodger on Batty street?

Irish Times, Sep 19:

Charles Ludwig, 40, a decently-dressed German of the Minories, was charged at the Thames Police Court to-day with being drunk and threatening to stab Alexander Finsberg, of 51 Leman street, Whitechapel.

The prosecutor said that at three o'clock that morning he was standing at a coffee stall in Whitechapel when the accused came up drunk, and in consequence was refused to be served. He then said to the prosecutor, "What are you looking at?" and pulled out a knife with which he tried to stab the witness. Ludwig followed him round the stall and made several attempts to stab him. A constable then came up and he was given into custody.

Constable 221H said the prisoner was in a very excited condition, and the witness had previously received information that he was wanted in the city for attempting to cut a woman's throat with a razor. On the way to the station he dropped a long-bladed open knife and on him was found a razor and a long-bladed pair of scissors.

Inspector Finlay, H Division, asked the magistrate to remand the prisoner, as they had not sufficient time to make inquiries concerning him.

Constable John Johnson, 886, stated that early that morning he was on duty in the Minories, when he heard loud screams of "Murder" proceeding from a court. The court led to some railway arches, and was well known as a dangerous locality. On going into the court he found the prisoner with a woman. The former appeared to be under the influence of drink. He (witness) asked what he was doing there when he replied, "Nothing" The woman, who appeared to be in a very agitated state, said "Oh, policeman, do take me out of this." The woman was so frightened that she could give no further explanation. The witness got her and the accused out of the court and sent the latter off. He walked with the woman to the end of his beat, when she said, "Dear me, he frightened me very much when he pulled a big knife out." The witness said, "Why didn't you tell me that at the time?" and she said, "I was much too frightened." He then searched for the prisoner, but couldn't find him, and therefore told several other constables what he had seen and heard. The witness had been out all morning trying to find the woman, but up to the present time had not been able to do so. He should know her again. He believed the prisoner worked in the neighbourhood.

Mr Saunders said it was clear the prisoner was a dangerous man, and ordered him to be remanded.

Great excitement prevails, as it is believed that some important discoveries in connection with the recent murders may come to light, and that the prisoner knows something about the tragedies. It has already been ascertained that Ludwig, who now professes that he is not able to speak English, has been in this country for about three months. He accounts for his time during the last three weeks, but nothing is at present known as to what he has been doing before that time. LATEST PARTICULARS A reporter had an interview with Alexander Finsberg, of 51 Leman street, who states that he was assaulted by the man Ludwig, now in custody, into whose antecedents the police are now inquiring. Finsberg, who is a youth about 18 years of age, stated that he was standing at a coffee stall at the corner of Commercial road about a quarter to 4 o'clock this morning when he noticed a man go by in company with a woman. His attention was directed to the man by the fact that he was respectably dressed and was with a poorly dressed woman. The man and woman were going in the direction of the Minories. About a quarter of an hour after the man, who was about 5 ft, 6 in. high and wore a top coat, returned ad went up to the coffee stall. He objected to pay a half penny for a cup of coffee, and there was an altercation. He then pulled out a long-bladed penknife and ran round the stall after Finsberg. A constable came across, and Finsberg gave the man into custody for attempting to stab him. Finsberg describes the man as being about 40 years of age, and walking with a stiff leg. He had a brown and grey beard. Inquiries at the Minories, the address which Ludwig gave upon being charged, show that he is unknown there. The city policeman who states that he saw the prisoner in company with a woman in the Minories has been engaged trying to find the woman, but has not succeeded.

[Fisherman]

If Nicholls was the first, he didn't get what he was after. Sounds like he was disturbed probably by the guys who found the body.

Not "guys", Chava - guy (and we don´t know that this guy "found" her).

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

The Ludwig story is one of those fascinating insights into Whitechapel life. What a time and place to be a knife wielding crazy foreigner!

I can't help but imagine the local cockney police trying to interview him, pulling an "Uncle Albert".

"Vot ist your name?"

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Incidentally, Ludwig had already passed the coffee stall once, so maybe he did scope out the location.

[Curious Cat]

I dont see how anyone else should have "necessarily" listened to "Lipsky" to make Israel's account more credible.
These inquests were attended by people who came forth afterwards... or were not attended by people who should have.
And were most probably attended by the killer.
This proves nothing.

"Just around the corner"/"from inside the club" -- this is not some silent church yard.
This is whitechapel, where people minded their own business ---
Or did they?

Fanny Mortimer hears footsteps from inside the house but doesn't hear the shout of "Lipski!" from the man she doesn't see throwing to the ground a woman she doesn't notice screaming three times while she's stood nearby in her doorway?

[Curious Cat]

I wouldn't call Grove street 'just around the corner'.
On the other hand, if he really were standing outside the Beehive, there are two obvious questions:
If the Beehive was closed at the time, what is the point of standing outside it?
If the Beehive was still open at the time, what is the point of standing outside it?

Our Ed Spooner is a very interesting character. I wonder if he also had a drink at the Bricklayer's Arms that evening, while he was on Settles street?

The corner of Christian Street/Fairclough Street, where The Beehive was, is only a few yards away from the junction of Berner Street and Fairclough Street. It's basically around the corner.

It's just where he stood with his lady. I've stood outside places that were closed and I've stood outside places that were open. It means nothing. If he was stood further west he'd say he was stood outside the board school. Further east, by a brick wall.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

What I'm trying to do with Ludwig, fairly obviously, is link him to the Batty Street Lodger, and to BS Man.
Regarding the later, I think it fair to say that placing Schwartz, BS Man & Pipeman on Berner St at 12:45 (or close to), is at best very difficult, and probably impossible.
However, some sort of incident involving Liz Stride being thrown to the ground, and seen by multiple people, apparently occurred that night.

In the Daily News, Sep 19, Ludwig's name as given as Charles Ludwig Wetzel:

Inquiries show that the man Wetzel is by trade a baker. He has made various statements as to the time he had been in this country, but his knowledge of English is imperfect. On Sunday night last he lodged at a coffee house in Church street, Minories, but in consequence of his dirty habits the proprietor would not allow him to remain the next night. He then went to an hotel in Finsbury, where he had previously lodged, and remained there until about one o'clock in the morning but the landlord would not allow him to stay the night. He produced a number of razors, and acted in such a manner that some of the inmates were quite frightened at his conduct. The landlady of this hotel stated that on the day after the last murder in Whitechapel, Wetzel called early in the morning and washed his hands, stating that he had been injured. Another person has alleged that there was blood on the man's hands, but as to this the landlady could not speak. Wetzel, who is about 40 years of age, walks lame, having a stiff leg. Several detectives visited the house where he lodged in Church street, Minories, but they found nothing belonging to him. Although every effort has been made to discover the woman with whom the prisoner was seen, the police have not been successful.

Sound familiar?

From the Tele:

He entered the employment of Mr. C. A. Partridge, hairdresser, the Minories, a fortnight ago last Saturday. Mr. Partridge met him at a German club in Houndsditch, which is a house of call for German hairdressers. After he had been in his new employment a week he asked to be allowed to sleep in the house, and to this Mr. Partridge consented. The reason he gave was that at the house at which he was staying there was a man lying dead, and he did not like to stop there. He made another move on Sunday night, and went to stay with a German tailor, named Johannes, in Church-street, Minories, leaving his scanty stock of worldly belongings at his employer's. Johannes, however, found that Ludwig would be an unwelcome visitor on account of his dirty habits, and he was told on Monday morning that he must not come back again. This, in a measure, accounts for his wandering about during the night. The things he has left at his employer's include two or three shirts and barbers' aprons, but no blood marks can be found upon them. Mr. Partridge says he is a good workman, but rather fond of drink.

So Ludwig/Wetzel was charged with threatening to stab someone when drunk, and is 'rather fond' of drink.
There is a problem with one of his legs, effecting his walk.
He has also been seen wandering around at night, after being kicked out of places.
All this is reminiscent of story told by 'the Hungarian', in the Star:

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb

A SECOND MAN CAME OUT

of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

I doubt any of this occurred, where and when Schwartz said it did, but I think it's a story based on real people, and real events.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

The corner of Christian Street/Fairclough Street, where The Beehive was, is only a few yards away from the junction of Berner Street and Fairclough Street.

Diemschitz said Grove street. Why don't you believe Louis?

It's basically around the corner.

Does Mr Harris live somewhere in between? What address?

It's just where he stood with his lady. I've stood outside places that were closed and I've stood outside places that were open. It means nothing. If he was stood further west he'd say he was stood outside the board school. Further east, by a brick wall.

Have you walked to a closed pub, and stood outside it talking for nearly half an hour?
How far is the Beehive from his own address? - 26 Fairclough St - why not stand outside his own place?
Better still, why not take the lady inside his own place?

No, not tonight, maybe some other night - was the other girl. A real one.

Let's get to the critical issue. Did Spooner?...

1. Leave the lady standing outside the Beehive, presumably to find her own way home, while he hastened to Berner St with LD & IK
2. Take the lady with him, and into Dutfield's Yard

If 2, what's your evidence?

[jerryd]

What I'm trying to do with Ludwig, fairly obviously, is link him to the Batty Street Lodger, and to BS Man.
Regarding the later, I think it fair to say that placing Schwartz, BS Man & Pipeman on Berner St at 12:45 (or close to), is at best very difficult, and probably impossible.
However, some sort of incident involving Liz Stride being thrown to the ground, and seen by multiple people, apparently occurred that night.

In the Daily News, Sep 19, Ludwig's name as given as Charles Ludwig Wetzel:

Inquiries show that the man Wetzel is by trade a baker. He has made various statements as to the time he had been in this country, but his knowledge of English is imperfect. On Sunday night last he lodged at a coffee house in Church street, Minories, but in consequence of his dirty habits the proprietor would not allow him to remain the next night. He then went to an hotel in Finsbury, where he had previously lodged, and remained there until about one o'clock in the morning but the landlord would not allow him to stay the night. He produced a number of razors, and acted in such a manner that some of the inmates were quite frightened at his conduct. The landlady of this hotel stated that on the day after the last murder in Whitechapel, Wetzel called early in the morning and washed his hands, stating that he had been injured. Another person has alleged that there was blood on the man's hands, but as to this the landlady could not speak. Wetzel, who is about 40 years of age, walks lame, having a stiff leg. Several detectives visited the house where he lodged in Church street, Minories, but they found nothing belonging to him. Although every effort has been made to discover the woman with whom the prisoner was seen, the police have not been successful.

Sound familiar?

From the Tele:

He entered the employment of Mr. C. A. Partridge, hairdresser, the Minories, a fortnight ago last Saturday. Mr. Partridge met him at a German club in Houndsditch, which is a house of call for German hairdressers. After he had been in his new employment a week he asked to be allowed to sleep in the house, and to this Mr. Partridge consented. The reason he gave was that at the house at which he was staying there was a man lying dead, and he did not like to stop there. He made another move on Sunday night, and went to stay with a German tailor, named Johannes, in Church-street, Minories, leaving his scanty stock of worldly belongings at his employer's. Johannes, however, found that Ludwig would be an unwelcome visitor on account of his dirty habits, and he was told on Monday morning that he must not come back again. This, in a measure, accounts for his wandering about during the night. The things he has left at his employer's include two or three shirts and barbers' aprons, but no blood marks can be found upon them. Mr. Partridge says he is a good workman, but rather fond of drink.

So Ludwig/Wetzel was charged with threatening to stab someone when drunk, and is 'rather fond' of drink.
There is a problem with one of his legs, effecting his walk.
He has also been seen wandering around at night, after being kicked out of places.
All this is reminiscent of story told by 'the Hungarian', in the Star:

It seems that he had gone out for the day, and his wife had expected to move, during his absence, from their lodgings in Berner-street to others in Backchurch-lane. When he came homewards about a quarter before one he first walked down Berner-street to see if his wife had moved. As he turned the corner from Commercial-road he noticed some distance in front of him a man walking as if partially intoxicated. He walked on behind him, and presently he noticed a woman standing in the entrance to the alley way where the body was afterwards found. The half-tipsy man halted and spoke to her. The Hungarian saw him put his hand on her shoulder and push her back into the passage, but, feeling rather timid of getting mixed up in quarrels, he crossed to the other side of the street. Before he had gone many yards, however, he heard the sound of a quarrel, and turned back to learn what was the matter, but just as he stepped from the kerb

A SECOND MAN CAME OUT

of the doorway of the public-house a few doors off, and shouting out some sort of warning to the man who was with the woman, rushed forward as if to attack the intruder. The Hungarian states positively that he saw a knife in this second man's hand, but he waited to see no more. He fled incontinently, to his new lodgings.

I doubt any of this occurred, where and when Schwartz said it did, but I think it's a story based on real people, and real events.

FYI.

Wetzel (Ludwig) was charged with attacking "one arm liz" (Elizabeth Burns) a week and a half before the double event. Most likely the same
one arm liz who was a witness in the Stride case. Both women were stated to have lived on Flower and Dean Street. Liz was instructed by the police during the Stride investigation to keep quiet about the matter. Abberline and Thicke were looking into his backround at the time of the double event.

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/rip...ge5#post734810 (post #74)

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Thanks Jerry!

[Curious Cat]

Diemschitz said Grove street. Why don't you believe Louis?

Diemschutz went to Grove Street.

He passed Edward Spooner, who was stood outside The Beehive on the corner of Cristian Street and Fairclough Street.

Diemschutz returned back along Fairclough Street and Edward Spooner joined him to go to Dutfield's Yard.

Look at a map.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Diemschutz went to Grove Street.

He passed Edward Spooner, who was stood outside The Beehive on the corner of Cristian Street and Fairclough Street.

Diemschutz returned back along Fairclough Street and Edward Spooner joined him to go to Dutfield's Yard.

Look at a map.

Read the transcript.

WB: Did you touch the body?
LD: No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.


Are you still thinking about the more important question?
I will start getting smug and arrogant if I keep asking questions that no one can answer.

[Curious Cat]

Read the transcript.

WB: Did you touch the body?
LD: No, I ran off at once for the police. I could not find a constable in the direction which I took, so I shouted out "Police!" as loudly as I could. A man whom I met in Grove- street returned with me, and when we reached the yard he took hold of the head of the deceased. As he lifted it up I saw the wound in the throat.


Are you still thinking about the more important question?
I will start getting smug and arrogant if I keep asking questions that no one can answer.

Read the transcript.


Edward Spooner, in reply to the coroner, said: I live at No. 26, Fairclough-street, and am a horse-keeper with Messrs. Meredith, biscuit bakers. On Sunday morning, between half-past twelve and one o'clock, I was standing outside the Beehive Public- house, at the corner of Christian-street, with my young woman. We had left a public- house in Commercial-road at closing time, midnight, and walked quietly to the point named. We stood outside the Beehive about twenty-five minutes, when two Jews came running along, calling out "Murder" and "Police." They ran as far as Grove- street, and then turned back. I stopped them and asked what was the matter, and they replied that a woman had been murdered. I thereupon proceeded down Berner-street and into Dutfield's-yard, adjoining the International Workmen's Club-house, and there saw a woman lying just inside the gate.


It appears they met in Fairclough Street in the section between the junctions of Christian Street and Grove Street. Deimschutz apparently takes Grove Street as the location.

Look at a map.