Does The Killer Scope Out Locations Before He Kills?

[Chava]

The difference between kellys place and any other location in terms of risk is night and day. Its the safest place by far.Hes in her place. theres privacy and theyre behind a locked door. if shes still alive before any attack no worries. once he kills her he dosnt have to answer unless someone tries to break in.
its why she was the most extensively mutilated.

No question he had all the time in the world. But in this area people came and went at any hour of the day and night. Barnet might have fetched up. Or Julia Venturney. Or some other trick looking to hook up. He was safe in all his locations because he was never caught. But in Hanbury St and Millers Court, if someone had walked in on him, he was trapped.

[Robert St Devil]

Well yes. That's my point. Nichol's wounds were accomplished while the stays were on the body. But Chapman's wounds could not have been. Or Eddowes. Stays were hard to cut through. They were padded & reinforced with whalebone. None of the other victims wore stays at the time of their death. Those stays may have been the last vestige of any kind of respectability left to poor Polly.

That's a solid point. When was the observation made about the possibility of the wounds being inflicted with the stays being worn? If it was before Annie's murder, then obviously noone has any idea how macabre the mind of this lunatic ran; iow they weren't thinking about flesh and intestines being removed or organs being harvested. The authorities must have only thought they had a stabbing maniac on their hand.

Considering we know that he either unzipped up the middle [ala Eddowes] or chunked out pieces [ala Chapman], I could see how stays may have prevented that particular mode of his "operation",and how the described cuts may have occurred around the edges of the lower part of the stay.

[Abby Normal]

No question he had all the time in the world. But in this area people came and went at any hour of the day and night. Barnet might have fetched up. Or Julia Venturney. Or some other trick looking to hook up. He was safe in all his locations because he was never caught. But in Hanbury St and Millers Court, if someone had walked in on him, he was trapped.

anyone could have walked in on him in hanbury street. he was behind a locked door in millers court-nobody could just walk in on him. good lord please tell me you can see the difference.

He was safe in all his locations because he was never caught

.i dont even know where to start with this one.

really chava, your reasoning leaves much to be desired. about the only thing Ive seen you say that has any merit is that blotchy is a valid suspect for the ripper. he is. maybe you should talk about him more.

[c.d.]

Stride we know he is disturbed.

Hello Chava,

No, we don't know that. It is conjecture.

c.d.

[Chava]

anyone could have walked in on him in hanbury street. he was behind a locked door in millers court-nobody could just walk in on him. good lord please tell me you can see the difference.

.i dont even know where to start with this one.

really chava, your reasoning leaves much to be desired. about the only thing Ive seen you say that has any merit is that blotchy is a valid suspect for the ripper. he is. maybe you should talk about him more.

If someone stopped by 13 Millers Court in the small hours--as it might be Barnett or Venturney, both of whom knew about the broken window--then all they would do to see if Mary was at home if they didn't get an answer to a knock would be to draw the old blankets back that were in their way & look through the window. Because that fire was roaring. There would have been light coming through the door and the window. So the likelihood would be that she was home. What do you think they would they see? And what would happen next? I'm pretty sure I know. They would have yelled their heads off. Brought people from all over the Court. And that door would have been busted down in a second. With the killer completely trapped.

[Abby Normal]

Abby stop with the poster-shaming please. Or I'll be forced to ask you to learn some basic grammar

If someone stopped by 13 Millers Court in the small hours--as it might be Barnett or Venturney, both of whom knew about the broken window--then all they would do to see if Mary was at home if they didn't get an answer to a knock would be to draw the old blankets back that were in their way & look through the window. Because that fire was roaring. There would have been light coming through the door and the window. So the likelihood would be that she was home. What do you think they would they see? And what would happen next? I'm pretty sure I know. They would have yelled their heads off. Brought people from all over the Court. And that door would have been busted down in a second. With the killer completely trapped.

Hi Chava

Abby stop with the poster-shaming please. Or I'll be forced to ask you to learn some basic grammar

haha. good one-at least a sense of humor have you ; )

the rest of your post mere idle speculation. everyone could have decided to sleep in at hanbury which would have made it the safest place. see how that works.

stick to what we know-Kelly locked room. Chapman-public. end of.

now do not respond to me in the negative ever again. double negative ok.

[Chava]

Hi Chava



haha. good one-at least a sense of humor have you ; )

the rest of your post mere idle speculation. everyone could have decided to sleep in at hanbury which would have made it the safest place. see how that works.

stick to what we know-Kelly locked room. Chapman-public. end of.

now do not respond to me in the negative ever again. double negative ok.

Actually I edited it out because it was a cheap shot.

But this isn't.

There was a broken window in 13 Millers Court which made it about as secure as Donald Trump's Covid Leadership. And he'd built a roaring fire. Anyone walking past would see the light and assume Kelly was in. Possibly knock on the door or look through the window. And I don't think he cares. Because he doesn't seem to factor in the possibility of being caught. It's likely, as another poster said, that this is part of the thrill for him. Perhaps even more of a thrill than getting to take a woman apart piece by piece. Certainly he doesn't go looking for other tarts with rooms after Kelly. He never kills again. Now why is that? Maybe because for the first time he's been seen by someone who knows his victim well. And has had a good long look at him. And therefore can identify him. Yes. Our Mr Blotchy. So there you go, Abby. A Mr Blotchy post for you

Oh and btw? There is no 'end of'. Not in this case. Not in any unsolved case. There are only possibilities.

[Abby Normal]

Actually I edited it out because it was a cheap shot.

But this isn't.

There was a broken window in 13 Millers Court which made it about as secure as Donald Trump's Covid Leadership. And he'd built a roaring fire. Anyone walking past would see the light and assume Kelly was in. Possibly knock on the door or look through the window. And I don't think he cares. Because he doesn't seem to factor in the possibility of being caught. It's likely, as another poster said, that this is part of the thrill for him. Perhaps even more of a thrill than getting to take a woman apart piece by piece. Certainly he doesn't go looking for other tarts with rooms after Kelly. He never kills again. Now why is that? Maybe because for the first time he's been seen by someone who knows his victim well. And has had a good long look at him. And therefore can identify him. Yes. Our Mr Blotchy. So there you go, Abby. A Mr Blotchy post for you

Oh and btw? There is no 'end of'. Not in this case. Not in any unsolved case. There are only possibilities.

yes. blotchy being seen well by cox with a good description definitely could have put him off for awhile.

[Joshua Rogan]

That's a solid point. When was the observation made about the possibility of the wounds being inflicted with the stays being worn? If it was before Annie's murder, then obviously noone has any idea how macabre the mind of this lunatic ran; iow they weren't thinking about flesh and intestines being removed or organs being harvested. The authorities must have only thought they had a stabbing maniac on their hand.

Considering we know that he either unzipped up the middle [ala Eddowes] or chunked out pieces [ala Chapman], I could see how stays may have prevented that particular mode of his "operation",and how the described cuts may have occurred around the edges of the lower part of the stay.

Apologies, in my earlier post I mistakenly said Helson's words were from 4 October, when they were in fact reported on the 4th September. So yes, they predate poor Annie's death.
Dr Llewellyn's description of Polly's wounds are vague and frankly incomprehensible, but the press reports are pretty consistent in describing a central wound from crotch almost to breastbone, others on each side almost as long, at least one of which extended from the crotch along the top of the thigh and over the hip. Tell me that description doesn't match the wounds visible in Kate's mortuary photo.

Helson also said (in the MA) that "The stays were shorter than usual, and did not reach the hip". So would have been no impediment to removing the pelvic organs, had the killer progressed that far. They certainly didn't stop her intestines from protruding.

[caz]

And the thing that comes out of his murder scenes is that he could have easily been caught at any one of them although he has a something of a way out in Mitre Square & Buck's Row. Stride we know he is disturbed. But we don't know why he didn't go further with Nichols. And Nichols is the exception to the 'narrow passage/broader enclosed area' theory I have. This was not the landscape of Buck's Row. BTW I always wondered why he stopped short of the kind of mutilations that occurred to the other victims. And I think I have the answer: Polly Nichols was wearing stays. The other's weren't. I wonder if he asked before he went any further with them...

I just think Nichols may have been a practice run. I suspect the same man killed Tabram, but either way he would have been learning and developing his technique in Buck's Row, and would also have been wary of men on their way to work at that hour, prompting him not to tarry at the scene and risk being disturbed by the likes of Cross and Paul.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

The difference between kellys place and any other location in terms of risk is night and day. Its the safest place by far.Hes in her place. theres privacy and theyre behind a locked door. if shes still alive before any attack no worries. once he kills her he dosnt have to answer unless someone tries to break in.
its why she was the most extensively mutilated.

Hi Abby,

Doesn't it depend on one's perspective? From the killer's point of view, any dangers he could foresee were outweighed by the urge to go to town on Kelly.

From Kelly's point of view, she would not have been thinking it was 'the safest place' for the ripper to carve her up, would she? Quite the reverse, she would have felt safer indoors, with or without a male companion, than she'd be outdoors alone, where the killer had attacked all his victims to date.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

It depends which paper you read as to Kozebrodsky's arrival time. The Daily News, for example, reports;
"I was in this club last night. I came in about half-past six in the evening. About twenty minutes to one this morning Mr. Diemschitz called me out to the yard."

The Irish Times has him also explicitly say that he had not left and returned in the meantime;
"I was in the club last night. I came in about 6.30 in the evening and I have not been away from it since. About 20 minutes to 1 this morning Mr Diemshitz called me out into the yard."

"20 minutes to 1" is in both quotes. And so is the fact that Louis called him....apparently some 20 minutes before he even arrived! He must have been very loud.

[Chava]

Apologies, in my earlier post I mistakenly said Helson's words were from 4 October, when they were in fact reported on the 4th September. So yes, they predate poor Annie's death.
Dr Llewellyn's description of Polly's wounds are vague and frankly incomprehensible, but the press reports are pretty consistent in describing a central wound from crotch almost to breastbone, others on each side almost as long, at least one of which extended from the crotch along the top of the thigh and over the hip. Tell me that description doesn't match the wounds visible in Kate's mortuary photo.

Helson also said (in the MA) that "The stays were shorter than usual, and did not reach the hip". So would have been no impediment to removing the pelvic organs, had the killer progressed that far. They certainly didn't stop her intestines from protruding.

They still don't give him as much freedom or time as he would have had if they weren't there. He's got complete control of the bodies of the other victims but incomplete control of Nichols.

[Chava]

I just think Nichols may have been a practice run. I suspect the same man killed Tabram, but either way he would have been learning and developing his technique in Buck's Row, and would also have been wary of men on their way to work at that hour, prompting him not to tarry at the scene and risk being disturbed by the likes of Cross and Paul.

Love,

Caz
X

I suspected he killed Tabram for ages. But the MOs are markedly different. Bayonet vs knife. Frenzied stabbing vs not-at-all frenzied cutting. And more than that--because I am a Mr Blotchy fan--I think his MO had been carefully thought-out over a long time. Ada Wilson's description of the man who 'tried to rob her' before cutting her throat twice goes like this:

man of about 30 years of age, 5ft 6ins in height, with a sunburnt face and a fair moustache. He was wearing a dark coat, light trousers and a wideawake hat.

. He didn't cut deep enough clearly and she was able to scream. So he scarpered.

Mary Ann Cox's description of Mr Blotchy goes like this:

A short, stout man, shabbily dressed. He had on a longish coat, very shabby, and carried a pot of ale in his hand.
[Coroner] What was the colour of the coat ? - A dark coat.
[Coroner] What hat had he ? - A round hard billycock.
[Coroner] Long or short hair ? - I did not notice. He had a blotchy face, and full carrotty moustache.

If this is the same guy, he's not using the same MO as whoever killed Tabram.

That having been said, you might be right about the practice run. I wonder if he'd gotten the opportunity to butcher animals between Wilson & Nichols. Because he failed in April he may have waited until he thought his technique was good enough before he ventured out on the hunt again. Discovered it was working perfectly after Nichols. And then went after Chapman first chance he got.

[Abby Normal]

I suspected he killed Tabram for ages. But the MOs are markedly different. Bayonet vs knife. Frenzied stabbing vs not-at-all frenzied cutting. And more than that--because I am a Mr Blotchy fan--I think his MO had been carefully thought-out over a long time. Ada Wilson's description of the man who 'tried to rob her' before cutting her throat twice goes like this: . He didn't cut deep enough clearly and she was able to scream. So he scarpered.

Mary Ann Cox's description of Mr Blotchy goes like this:
If this is the same guy, he's not using the same MO as whoever killed Tabram.

That having been said, you might be right about the practice run. I wonder if he'd gotten the opportunity to butcher animals between Wilson & Nichols. Because he failed in April he may have waited until he thought his technique was good enough before he ventured out on the hunt again. Discovered it was working perfectly after Nichols. And then went after Chapman first chance he got.

hi chava
I think your on the right track... and lets not forget about millwood.

I see it this way.

millwood-first attempt. smaller knife used. she survives.

wilson-smaller knife used-this time goes for the throat. survives.

tabram-strangles/blows to head first to incapacitate. smaller knife used, then larger knife to finish off. first succesful kill.

nichols-strangles/blows to head first, then cuts throat to kill. starts abdominal mutilations. MO now fully formed.

I see several clumsy attempts at first, escalation and finally getting it right with nichols. next time with chapman hes able to go further and get inside and get organs.

and yes blotchy is viable for all these. and im not married to either wilson and or millwood being 100 % ripper victims.

i think there were a couple of other sightings of a man with reddish hair too-someone suspicious being followed after chapman I beleive?