Pub or Street?

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Sorry, but we cannot possibly know how Stride spent her money - or even how much money she had to spend.

We can possibly know - on cheap food, booze, doss house accommodation and rent.
Very little left over.

If it had been a Rolex watch or a Bentley we were discussing, it would be another thing, but it is a few cachous wrapped in tissue, representing a very low value.

Half a dozen left, let's say.
So how many in the original packet?
Was it packet though?
If yes, then why aren't the cachous in commercial paper? Why tissue paper?
If no, then are these actually branded cachous, or were they home made - boiled up by Mrs Diemschitz in the kitchen of #40 Berner street?

Probability suggests she would not be a purchaser of lollies, or fruit, or potato pasta meals at pubs.
Someone planted the cachous on her, possibly also the grapes, and someone out of her social class bought her drinks and a nice meal, at the pub.

[DJA]

Exclusive brand.

Sutton's Own.

[MrBarnett]

I’ve seen evidence that in the 1880s scented cachous were being sold at 1d to 3d per oz, and they would have probably been available loose at weights from 1/4 oz. So it seems unlikely that Stride, who worked at cleaning, who had a long term relationship with a man in employment, who occasionally received relief from the Swedish Church in Prince’s Square, and who to some extent operated as a prostitute, couldn’t have afforded to splurge a farthing on the occasional luxury such as a quarter of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

There’s no reason to suppose she couldn’t have bought the cachous herself, but however she obtained them, she would probably have made them last. The packet found on her body needn’t have been bought on the day of her death.

[Fisherman]

It's all a matter of probability, of course. Possibly, he...

1. was completely mistaken about the grapes, the clenched hands, who unclenched the non-clenched hands, the side of the hand holding 'grapes' he was looking at, and was bewildered as to why the grapes seem to stay wedded to the hand, after this point
2. did indeed witness someone move grapes from the hand, prior to the arrival of Johnston
3. lied about the clenched hand and grapes - the obvious reason would be to suggest that she gripped the grapes (and cachous) tightly when the killer struck, who then placed her down where she was found - thus no movement of the body after this point, which would preclude a backyard job

#1 is very long odds - I'd give you 100/1
#2 would suggest body tampering, probably for the reason given in #3. This is because she probably couldn't go to ground holding grapes and cachous in her hands - they must have been placed in her hands after the moment of murder. This would suggest club involvement in the murder.
#3 would suggest the club is trying extra hard to look innocent, because an Anarchist club with a poor rep needs to, or because some of them are up to their necks in the murder.
An innocent club telling lies is a risky strategy, so why bother, whereas a guilty club has little choice but to take risks.
Consequently, Diemschitz' claim to have seen grapes, and Kozebrodsky backing this up, looks bad.
The fact that at the inquest, Diemschitz has not only 'forgotten' about the grapes in one hand, and cachous in the other, but instead claims to have not even seen the position of the hands, make him look even more suspicious.
It's just not the sort of details that one would forget, after a single day.

I think it is a lot simpler. There were never any grapes in the hand (The Times of the 3:rd of October writes, quoting Blackwell: "The right hand was lying on the chest, and was smeared inside and out with blood. It was quite open.")

Now, if the hand was quite open and she was on her side with the hand dangling over her chest and quite open, logic dictates that no object, least of all round or oblong objects, would stay in the hand, and so we may conclude that the hand had not a single grape in it.

As for Diemschitz not speaking about the grapes at the inquest, that may well owe to him having realized by then that he got it wrong on the night.

Isn´t that a much less intricate and unlikely explanation than one of conspiracies and lies - and gravity-defying grapes?

[Fisherman]

I’ve seen evidence that in the 1880s scented cachous were being sold at 1d to 3d per oz, and they would have probably been available loose at weights from 1/4 oz. So it seems unlikely that Stride, who worked at cleaning, who had a long term relationship with a man in employment, who occasionally received relief from the Swedish Church in Prince’s Square, and who to some extent operated as a prostitute, couldn’t have afforded to splurge a farthing on the occasional luxury such as a quarter of cachous wrapped in tissue paper.

There’s no reason to suppose she couldn’t have bought the cachous herself, but however she obtained them, she would probably have made them last. The packet found on her body needn’t have been bought on the day of her death.

All very true, Mr Barnett. Thank you for the information, much appreciated. I am not saying that we must accept that she bought the cachous herself, of course, only that we cannot possibly rule out that she did!

[MrBarnett]

I’m with you, Christer. She could have bought them herself or someone could have bought them for her.

And she could have bought them on the night she was killed or days - weeks - beforehand.

I don’t think this brand of cachous would have been available in 1888, but these are probably the sort of jars from which they would have been dispensed into small bags or wraps of tissue paper at that time.

[Fisherman]

Nice pic, Mr Barnett! A touch of exoticism, those jars!!

[DJA]

In 1895 cachous were sold at Harrods for 3 shillings an ounce.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Exclusive brand.

Sutton's Own.

Home brand, wrapped in cheap tissue paper.
Louis sold the sweetmeats out of the back of his barrow, at the markets.
He sold coconuts too.
Generally speaking, he sold edibles.
Not much different to Matthew Packer, in that respect.
Jewelry? No so much.
That's why he had to stop at #40 Berner, to offload, before taking the pony and cart back to Cable street.
Jewelry would have been light enough to carry from Cable street, by hand (saving the extra trip).

[NotBlamedForNothing]

I think it is a lot simpler. There were never any grapes in the hand (The Times of the 3:rd of October writes, quoting Blackwell: "The right hand was lying on the chest, and was smeared inside and out with blood. It was quite open.")

Now, if the hand was quite open and she was on her side with the hand dangling over her chest and quite open, logic dictates that no object, least of all round or oblong objects, would stay in the hand, and so we may conclude that the hand had not a single grape in it.

As for Diemschitz not speaking about the grapes at the inquest, that may well owe to him having realized by then that he got it wrong on the night.

Isn´t that a much less intricate and unlikely explanation than one of conspiracies and lies - and gravity-defying grapes?

Simpler, yes, but the simplicity is due to layering your subjective interpretation onto the subjective interpretation of someone long dead.
The 'visual illusion of grapes theory' is unfalsifiable.
The grapes are a problem - the 'theory' makes the problem go away.
Hence its apparent popularity.

As for the right hand, yes it was open when Blackwell looked at it.
Not long before that though, it was closed, and with a packet of cachous in it.

[DJA]

I’m with you, Christer. She could have bought them herself or someone could have bought them for her.

And she could have bought them on the night she was killed or days - weeks - beforehand.

I don’t think this brand of cachous would have been available in 1888, but these are probably the sort of jars from which they would have been dispensed into small bags or wraps of tissue paper at that time.

Those are 20th century scented lollies made under license.
Doubt they contained any cachou powder.
In 1888 the real product were sold in tiny tins.

[MrBarnett]

In 1895 cachous were sold at Harrods for 3 shillings an ounce.

That’s fascinating, Dave. But is it necessarily relevant to Stride?

[MrBarnett]

Those are 20th century scented lollies made under license.
Doubt they contained any cachou powder.
In 1888 the real product were sold in tiny tins.

Lollies?

They are the breath freshener sweets known to this day as cachous and that particular brand was first produced in the 1890s.

[Losmandris]

Great to see this thread has stayed on track since I've been away!

Tristan

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Prolly my fault.
I was going to write up a new thread, but the inertia here seems too great