Pub or Street?

[jerryd]

Regarding cachous. Check out Horner and Sons of Mitre Square.

https://books.google.com/books?id=C9...square&f=false

[DJA]

Lollies?

They are the breath freshener sweets known to this day as cachous and that particular brand was first produced in the 1890s.

Precisely the point I made.

Real cachous contained cachou powder,like the 1888 brands in 6 gram tins.

What you pictured are lollies from the 1930s.

God only knows where "nothing" got his from.

[Fisherman]

Simpler, yes, but the simplicity is due to layering your subjective interpretation onto the subjective interpretation of someone long dead.
The 'visual illusion of grapes theory' is unfalsifiable.
The grapes are a problem - the 'theory' makes the problem go away.
Hence its apparent popularity.

As for the right hand, yes it was open when Blackwell looked at it.
Not long before that though, it was closed, and with a packet of cachous in it.

Well, Sir, I put it to you that the theory of Kozebrodsky and Diemschitz lying through their teeth is equally unfalsifiable, as is the idea that there were really grapes in that hand. So we are on equal handing on that score!

I donīt know whether the theory of mistaking blood clots for grapes is "popular", but I do know that it offers a very likely explanation for the matter, whereas suggesting that a medico missed out on the grapes, that noone found them on the ground and that witnesses from a distance are better judges than a trained doctor examining a body makes for a lot less likely suggestion. Far from engaging in popularity contests, I much prefer to try and find simple and viable explanations to what would otherwise be peddled as enigmas.

The right hand, by the way, never had any cachous in it. It was the left hand that did. The left hand was partly closed, the right was fully open.

[DJA]

Regarding cachous. Check out Horner and Sons of Mitre Square.

https://books.google.com/books?id=C9...square&f=false

They eventually extended through to 5 Mitre Street.

Excellent 'photo somewhere. Taken after 6 was demolished.

[DJA]

Great to see this thread has stayed on track since I've been away!

Tristan

It's all your fault,you know.

Should have known better.

[NotBlamedForNothing]

Well, Sir, I put it to you that the theory of Kozebrodsky and Diemschitz lying through their teeth is equally unfalsifiable, as is the idea that there were really grapes in that hand. So we are on equal handing on that score!

The illusion theory is standalone, whereas I can draw on any supporting evidence, to build up a case.

I donīt know whether the theory of mistaking blood clots for grapes is "popular", but I do know that it offers a very likely explanation for the matter, whereas suggesting that a medico missed out on the grapes, that noone found them on the ground and that witnesses from a distance are better judges than a trained doctor examining a body makes for a lot less likely suggestion. Far from engaging in popularity contests, I much prefer to try and find simple and viable explanations to what would otherwise be peddled as enigmas.

A fair point, however, the grapes, if they were there, would have been removed well by the time Johnston arrived, let alone Blackwell.
They were probably in her right hand, same as the cachous was at the time.
Fanny Mortimer seems to indicate that both were in the same hand.

The right hand, by the way, never had any cachous in it. It was the left hand that did. The left hand was partly closed, the right was fully open.

OMG! I'm sorry about that!
How could I have made such an elementary mistake?
Every Ripperologist knows the cachous were in the left hand!
Perhaps I've just been reading too much inquest testimony?

Edward Spooner (inquest):

[Daily News] When the man struck the match I bent down and lifted up the chin of the deceased. The chin was just warm. The blood was still flowing from the throat, which was cut. I noticed a bit of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a flower on her breast. I am sure I did not move the position of her head or body when I touched her.

[Daily Telegraph] I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and some red and white flowers pinned on her breast. I did not feel the body, nor did I alter the position of the head. I am sure of that.

[Morning Advertiser] One of the Jews struck a match and I lifted up the chin. I put my hand under the chin and lifted it. The chin was slightly warm, as if chilled. Blood was still flowing from the throat. I did not feel any other part of the body. I noticed she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned to her breast. I am sure I did not move the position of her head at all.

[The Times] I could see that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand, and a red and white flower pinned on to her jacket.

It was the right hand that had held the cachous.
That's probably were the grapes were too.
Someone 'nicked' the grapes - probably young Ashbrigh.
Someone else, inadvertently caused the cachous packet to drop, and then relocated it to the left hand (under the thumb and against index finger).
It was the 'spilling' of the cachous packet that resulted in the right hand getting bloodied.
It was probably due to PC Lamb...
Lantern was in left hand - trying to feel pulse with right hand - crowd moving in - too much pressure - cachous packet drops - tries to 'catch' it by pushing Stride's hand down - hands smears with blood against neck - places packet under thumb of left hand (almost hides it) - more congealing blood leaks onto hand - places hand against chest, in open position - doesn't mention it to anyone - Johnston doesn't even notice the blood.

Now tell me how she hung onto the cachous packet...

[NotBlamedForNothing]

It's all your fault,you know.

Should have known better.

Shall I be blamed for nothing?

[MrBarnett]

Precisely the point I made.

Real cachous contained cachou powder,like the 1888 brands in 6 gram tins.

What you pictured are lollies from the 1930s.

God only knows where "nothing" got his from.

Where do you get the term ‘lollies’ from? Is that an Aussie thing? A lolly here is a sweet or an ice on a stick. It might make more sense to use the UK terminology.

What Stride was carrying were described as both cachous and sweetmeats, weren’t they? That’s what was in the jars in the picture - cachou sweets. And because they were in jars, they would have been sold in paper bags or twists of paper.

I’m not sure how you were able to date the jars, but that brand was on the market in the 1890s.

[MrBarnett]

In 1895 cachous were sold at Harrods for 3 shillings an ounce.

I think you’ll find that was 3d (pence) not 3s shillings) - 12 x cheaper!

[DJA]

Thanks. Typo of sorts.

[DJA]

Cachous were named after the drug obtained from Senegalia catechu.

The drug is an astringent.

Have a look at Hip Lip Lizzie's bottom lip.

She is showing a very distinct sign of hereditary hemorrhagic telangiectasia.

Jack has offered cachous to her and she has picked them out of his palm with thumb and forefinger.

Last thing she did.

[Fisherman]

OMG! I'm sorry about that!
How could I have made such an elementary mistake?
Every Ripperologist knows the cachous were in the left hand!
Perhaps I've just been reading too much inquest testimony?

Edward Spooner (inquest): "I noticed that she had a piece of paper doubled up in her right hand..."

It was the right hand that had held the cachous.
That's probably were the grapes were too.

Aha. So you put your trust in how Spooner spoke about the cachous being in Strides right hand - and you accept that all of the rest who witnessed about it were wrong when they said it was the left hand that held the cachous?
You know that the right hand was hanging down Strides side and completely open as Blackwell examined it - and you still think that hand would have held on to a packet of cachous and a number of grapes?
And you think Blackwell noticed the cachous but not the grapes?

Maybe Spooner is not the best of witnesses? "I should say it was about 25 minutes to 1 when I first went to the yard" was his time estimation. Maybe he got that dead wrong and the right hand thing dead right, putting all the other witnesses to shame...?

Someone 'nicked' the grapes - probably young Ashbrigh.
Someone else, inadvertently caused the cachous packet to drop, and then relocated it to the left hand (under the thumb and against index finger).
It was the 'spilling' of the cachous packet that resulted in the right hand getting bloodied.

You ARE aware that Blackwell said that he as the one who spilled the cachous? I canīt remember the source, but it is there.

Now tell me how she hung onto the cachous packet...

No. You tell me why you hang on to a suggestion that has nothing going for it instead. It should be much more interesting.

[Fisherman]

Thanks. Typo of sorts.

Yes, you wrote shilling but meant pence.

A typo.

Of sorts.

[DJA]

Lsd confuses me

[Fisherman]

"Dr. Blackwell, recalled, said there was one point on which he was not quite clear. He had removed the cachou from the left hand, which was nearly open; in fact, it was between the thumb and the first finger, which accounted for the police not seeing it, and it was he who spilled the cachous on the ground."

There we go. Evening News, October 6. No loose ends left.